Pen Pals

Embracing your weird & finding your readers

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 1 • Episode 13

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Kelton shares the tough news of losing a client to AI, leading to a powerful discussion about finding and embracing your unique voice as a writer. The hosts explore writing about personal obsessions - from desert landscapes to intrusive thoughts - and how 'writing your weird' attracts the right readers. Krisserin finds her first alpha readers (including her mom!), they analyze Miranda July's boundary-pushing novel 'All Fours,' share tips for building a Substack audience, and Kelton explains how she uses tarot for creative guidance. Goals: Kelton balances job hunting with writing during nap times, while Krisserin searches for comp titles at the bookstore.

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Krisserin:

not matching for once.

Kelton:

I don't know, is black and white, not in some way matching.

Krisserin:

Well, you're wearing green too, so

Kelton:

That's true.

Krisserin:

I don't know we're very much matched, telepathically, communicating to each other, what color to wear. So this is a a first, but how was your week, Kelton?

Kelton:

It was rough. It was rough week. I lost a pivotal client of mine, about a third of our income. Uh, and I lost it to ai.

Speaker:

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton:

The, um, yeah,

Krisserin:

up.

Kelton:

The CMO that I was reporting to really loved my work but the CEO was like, we could get this for free. And I think that they're about to see that you need a good conductor for ai and that it doesn't just turn out good work because you ask it to, you need to know what to ask. So, it's a bummer for me. I had to really turn my focus to networking this week. But I am looking for another mainstay client. If anyone is hiring a brand strategist, content editorial maven, who's just a gem to hang out with and really good at what she does.

Krisserin:

I've been working in tech now for, well, my whole career, but in the last couple of years, and CEOs are very distracted by the new shiny thing. And AI is the perfect vessel for a know-it-all male, CEO to think that he can get something for cheaper without actually realizing that, especially when it comes to voice and soul of a brand, it's not something you're gonna get from machine learning. So, I'm so sorry to hear that. It's their loss, obviously.

Kelton:

it's a bummer. But, uh, you know, I am just one of many people in centuries of technology taking away jobs, and you just, I guess I just have to get a real estate license.

Krisserin:

That sounds like the, I could never see you a real estate agent.

Kelton:

Oh, well, let me know what you can see me as, because the runway on my career is looking quite short.

Krisserin:

It sucks working in these industries because I don't want to, don't wanna project my insecurities onto you, but ageism is real, especially in the, in the tech industry but I think the people who survive are the ones that can use technology to, to further their, their work. But, you know, you'll find something and hopefully it'll be something that pays really well.

Kelton:

yeah. Let me know out there. Let me know what you find. It's tough.

Krisserin:

Today we're, I thought we could extend the conversation that we had last week. You know, obviously last week we were talking about the competition for ideas and where your book sits on the shelf amongst all of the other books in your genre. And what I took away from that conversation was really just needing focus on the things that you wanna write about, that we wanna write about. And we've talked about this a little bit in the past, this like writing, writing your weird. And so I thought today we could talk a little bit about what it means to write your weird and, to find the people who respond to your weird, the weirdos that are weird with you. So I think that that'll be a really fun discussion. But let's talk about our goals a little bit. From last week, I, my goal was to do nothing, I

Kelton:

Yeah. Did you do a a lot of nice, nothing.

Krisserin:

Well, no, not really. What, so after our conversation, I try to think about what I, what it was I wanted to get done this weekend. There's a, a combination of things that happened, like one, for some reason despite not getting up at five o'clock every morning. I've been exhausted this week, just so tired. Which is weird because I feel like, and maybe it's because I, where I'm, where I am on my, like, menstrual cycle phase, I've just been tired and I haven't been getting up super early. I've been sleeping in a little bit more. So, um, I think that's like one thing. But, there were two things that I was hoping to get done this week. One was to find my alpha readers and I was able to find three.

Kelton:

Ooh.

Krisserin:

One of them's my mom.

Kelton:

Hey mom.

Krisserin:

One of them's my mom. And then, I actually yesterday just mailed my manuscript to a friend and then signed up to help out another friend who needs an accountability buddy. So I'm gonna send her my manuscript and she's gonna send me 20 pages every couple of weeks so that she's got someone waiting for her pages is. So I did that. The other thing that I wanted to do that I did not get a chance to do, which will probably be my goal for the next week, is to actually figure out what my comps are.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

go to the bookstore and like do a little bit of research and figure out how I'm gonna frame my book. So that's, um, what I was hoping to do this week. And I did feel a little bit like icky and, and weird and insecure asking people, but because I knew Kelton, I was gonna have to say something to you. I was like, I better just do it.

Kelton:

Yay. Get

Krisserin:

outta my comfort. So, but it took some warming up. It was like a. You know, like

Kelton:

I.

Krisserin:

sitting there on my phone like, Hey, do you want, um, well, uh,

Kelton:

Yeah,

Krisserin:

trying to figure out how to ask, but I did it, so

Kelton:

I'm very proud of you

Krisserin:

thanks.

Kelton:

you'll be proud of me.

Krisserin:

Well,

Kelton:

got

Krisserin:

I hope so.

Kelton:

2,261 words.

Krisserin:

Hell yeah.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

that.

Kelton:

Yeah. I had a, definitely a mental breakdown after I got the news about my gig, but all of these words came before that, so lucky me. So like the last two days I've just been like staring into the abyss, being like, what am I gonna do? Um, but I did get the writing done and that is the important part.

Krisserin:

I mean, we talked about distractions and you know, the not knowing where your next gig's gonna come from or having any instability in that place in your life is definitely a distraction. So it's great that you were able to get work done it, you know? Um, but what is that, like a 10% improvement on like week over week?

Kelton:

That's right, that's right

Krisserin:

That's all we're looking for.

Kelton:

on my resume. I'd be like, you're seeing gains week on week with me.

Krisserin:

Hockey stick, hockey stick improvement. Well, I'm, again, I'm sorry to hear about your gig. I am. I, I do hope though. know this week you said you spent networking, but maybe that means this next week you'll have a little bit more time to write.

Kelton:

Yeah. I mean, inevitably the, the reality is that when you don't have work to do, there's other work to do. So I will try to at least use this next week, like while all the feelers are out to really churn words, to take advantage of that, you know, you can't be trying to get a job. Every hour of the day. I don't know that many people, I don't have that many platforms to reach out to people on. So it's like I've done the bulk of the work. I have to send some like, individual messages and some emails, but after that is done, I've got, I've got a gap of time and I'm gonna have to fill it with novel.

Krisserin:

I, I'm both happy and you know, nervous for you,

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

know you're

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

it out. I know you're gonna figure it

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

Great. Well, let's talk about how weird we are.

Kelton:

Yeah. Hopefully this still makes me hireable, but, I feel like the, the thing that connects us is that we're kind of oddballs it's case in point by sharing our Penelope Douglas conversation on, Instagram and TikTok and everyone being like, what the fuck guys? Oh, listen, we're true to who we are. Okay.

Krisserin:

It is true. And you know what? I think if we're to learn anything from Penelope Douglas is that being a little weird and taboo and out there works for some people. Right.

Kelton:

Yeah,

Krisserin:

I was trying to think about the strange and specific our work and in the things that we love. Right. Penelope Douglas, not to fixate on her. She's a romance writer. That, and I don't know, what would you call it? It's not like, I don't wanna call it smut because even though that's what consider it to be, I think that she has her own genre of, is it like taboo romance? Is that what you would call it?

Kelton:

I think maybe that sounds right. Only read one of her books, so I, you know, I can't, yeah, I can't like quite capture her identity, but I think there is something that, like when you think about a romance. Writer. There are so many micro genres within that, like we talked about in the last episode where Karen Gillespie did that breakdown of query trackers, latest successes, the bulk were romance, but within that category there were like five breakdown categories. So it's like, you don't have to be Emily Henry, you don't have to be Sarah J. Moss and both of them for fall pretty, I mean, Romantasy is its own category, but like Emily Henry is like traditional, like what would you call that? Like Meg Ryan, Billy Crystal Romance?

Krisserin:

Nora Efron Romance.

Kelton:

Yeah. Nora Ephron romance.

Krisserin:

I finished the, the series that I was reading, and I'm waiting for the next book to come in the next four set of this Robin Hobb world. So there's some books that got delivered to my Libby that are all, like filler romance. I, I'll add things to my holds list that I see on TikTok. And one was a, I thought this was really interesting actually. One was a book called Accidentally Amy by an author named Lynn Painter, who I think writes really fun romance novels. And she actually wrote this novel as a series in her substack

Kelton:

Ah.

Krisserin:

and then it. And it got so much attention that publishers reached out to her and wanted to publish the novel. And so she did, she revised it and published it as a, a mainstream published book. Um, but I was trying to read it and it was, sorry, Lynn Painter. I like your other books. But this one was so bad. It was so bad because it was so, it was so basic. It was so, like, there was nothing distinguishing about it. I mean, the book opens with a woman who's waiting for a pumpkin spice latte in cafe. then because she's gonna be late, she picks up someone else's order name is not hers, and then rams into a man and spills coffee all over his

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

cute.

Kelton:

That's sort of a, a meet standard, if you will.

Krisserin:

I feel like I've read this scene

Kelton:

I feel like I've seen that scene. I feel like that's in that Glen Powell, Sidney Sweeney movie. I, I just feel like I've seen this happen.

Krisserin:

I didn't watch that movie, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Kelton:

I mean,

Krisserin:

mean, that's what I'm saying, like you, there is a commercialness to romance that is very standard and I just didn't wanna read that. I feel like I've read it. There's nothing new there for

Kelton:

yeah. It's like you can do that for me, but then I need the guy that she runs into to start literally evaporating. Like, I need something really strange to start happening immediately. If we're just gonna bump into each other in a coffee shop and spill our coffee, like is at the beginning of the Starbucks$50 million lawsuit that he gets burned. You know, I'm like, take me on a path that is different if you're going to have the path start at the same trailhead.

Krisserin:

Yeah. And I guess that goes to with romance, right? The love story can't really be the whole story.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

in the context of something like a bigger problem that's happening in this person's life or in the world or whatever it may be. But really what we're talking about when we're talking about how to distinguish ourselves and writing the things that are interesting, it's the weirdness about our backgrounds and the things that we're interested in that make our stories unique. I was thinking about that I fixate on and I like to write about, and a lot of it is, we talked about inspiration through place, but a lot of what I like to write about happens in the desert and the people who live outskirts of civilization and it's, it's kind of like why science fiction is interesting, right? Is you're taking, you're taking humans and you're putting in these extreme environments. And through those trials is when humanity really comes to the surface and we get to examine what it means to be human and we react to these really wild things. And so I, that's what I'm looking for. That's what I like to write about. I also just think that like, people who live in the desert are kind of weird and interesting.

Kelton:

Yes, there is a special place in my heart for the desert rat.

Krisserin:

Well, except for you hate the desert.

Kelton:

Yeah. I don't belong there, but I like the people there. You know, the desert doesn't want me, that doesn't mean I can't respect it from afar.

Krisserin:

Fair enough. What weird things have you found that you fixate on, that your audience responds to?

Kelton:

I mean, I had a list in my head before you said that your audience responds to, I mean, there's a bunch of weird things. I fixate on Anne Helen Peterson on her substack culture study. Had a discussion thread this morning that was like, what is the very small hill that you will die on? And this is such a great question for the way that I approach my substack because it's those tiny hills that I often find the most inspirational. Like why you should break down your cardboard or like the fact that a dirt road does not ruin your car. It's how you drive on the dirt road that ruins your car. And these little niches of information about essentially where I live, drive a lot of the subject matter. And I think when you have deep passion for these micro issues, even if someone doesn't necessarily relate to it, it's fun to read someone care about something, like deeply care about something, especially if you hadn't considered it before, you're like, Hmm, look at that. How peculiar.

Krisserin:

To use the metaphor of speeding down the dirt road, I feel like, I don't know about you, but personally I feel like I just speed through life a lot of times. I was talking to Sabine last night, my husband's outta town, so we were hanging out in my bed and I said, I feel like Covid just erased three years of your life. For me, I don't remember any of it because we're just trying to survive through this time and a lot of fiction that I really love is the, it's because it's making us slow down

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

and to look at areas of life that we probably ignore, and even if it's while you're driving down the dirt road. Taking care not to like speed and kick up dust into your engine or whatever it may be. I haven't read it, I don't know. But I learned how to drive on a dirt road because I grew up on a dirt

Kelton:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

And you know, like after it rains, the dirt road can get wash boardy and you gotta be careful of the ravines on the side and like the soft spots and all of these things. And it's like, think that before technology we all had to pay attention

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

the details of life. You know, like where are you placing your foot as you're walking through the desert? You have to pay attention. And I think in a fast-paced world, we don't do that. And good fiction is the stuff that makes us slow down and pay attention.

Kelton:

Well, I think also, yeah, it's good writers, good writers and especially comedians are so good at slowing down enough to look at what is happening and be able to relay it to the, the reader or the listener in a way that they're like, ah, you know, for a comedian, it's like, I haven't thought about it that way before. For a writer, it's like, it, it brings you back to exactly how you thought about it before. You just never had the words for it. And I think that. The, the fact that we're both like attached to this idea of slowing down to capture these ideas. I mean, I'm so glad I started with the dirt road because that's like exactly the point. It's like, especially on our stretch of dirt road, if you go 45 miles per hour, you will finish that stretch of dirt road in two and a half minutes. Now, people who have gone 45 miles an hour have hit animals. They've killed deer. One deer that was carrying two babies, so killed three for the price of one, one person Here, it's just a, it's just a plain old dirt road flipped their car because they were going so fast. They're killing possums, they're killing porcupines, they're killing Marmite. They've killed people's pets. And you know what happens when you go 25 miles per hour, which is the speed limit on this road? It takes two. And a half minute, or it takes six, six minutes. Two and a half is the fast one. It takes six minutes. So you're saving three and a half minutes for what? For what? You're driving on one of the most beautiful roads in the country so that you can get to the, like, the grocery on time. Like I just, I, and you know, I know people will be like, oh, I was late and I need to drop my kid off. And like, it was the final consequence. And like, there's all these things that like pile on of a person relying on convenience so much that then they, they put themselves in this hole of, of being late. And I'm sure someone will be like, wait till your kid is older. You know, wait till you're trying to put shoes on a toddler. I'm like, yeah, I, I get it. But it's like, I just think it's the consequences of the other way of driving through life so fast are such a bummer. And you can see them everywhere. This is me embracing my weird, this is me being like, slow down. I'm the old woman on the front porch, like banging her cane, being like, whatcha doing on my dirt road?

Krisserin:

No, I mean, it's also a very human-centric way of looking at things, which we have a problem doing. You know, I think especially people who don't live in, in nature tend to think about humans first and themselves first. Right. It's also like a uniquely, American or western concept where we are very, like, instead of thinking of the community. And the, the, in society at large, we're, we're fixating on our needs and what is important to me, that's like a, a lecture for a different day. I do like this idea of slowing down. I'm always trying to get back to like specific smells and

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

of my childhood. There is a specific smell of like a kindergarten classroom that is like the combination of, I don't know, like peanut butter sandwiches and crayons and whatever weird cleaner they used to wipe down the, the desks that I'm try like, it is sometimes like triggers something in my mind and you know, sometimes you'll smell it and you'll be like, what? where, where did it come from? Like always chasing these scents. The smell of, Jasmine and my great-grandmother's backyard and things like that, that I'm always trying to hunt down and trying to capture so that I can put it on paper and make people feel that again. Like that is my, mild obsession,

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

But I think that it's something that people can relate to. When you get like really down in the weeds about something and, take the time to unwrap a present of an idea for a person, I think that that's when the writing really shines. And so when I read a book like that, Amy Amy book, and I don't mean to pick a Lynn painter because also I'm reading another book now that had a dream sequence in it that was fucking horrible.

Kelton:

no.

Krisserin:

It made me really mad, but I'm like, I'm just gonna keep reading it. I don't care. Like I've gotta power through it. But, um. Yeah, I feel like that's when I'm just like, how are these people getting their books published and we're not?

Kelton:

Well, I mean, you know, the books we're working on right now, we don't know if they'll be published or not. Like, I'm also reading a book this week that, you know, I, it's, it's fine. But I am surprised that it's available at every library, you know, and I don't wanna pick on the writer. Not gonna, I'm not gonna call out the book, I will tell you later, because it's it, but it's written like a rambling diary entry. And it's also like, it's a, that's kind of like a, a trope of a person that I don't relate to. And so that, that makes it harder to get through. But reading it, I'm like, listen, if this person can have like six books published, I can probably get one. I think, and maybe this is, that person's like fifth book, you know, it's just like they have that relationship established. They're expected to deliver. They're not trying to break in with this novel. That might be the case, but. I will say they have embraced their weird, fully, they have a style of writing that while I don't love it, I bet some people do. And so even though it doesn't blow me away as a piece of writing, it is uniquely them. And I think that's something that people can kind of struggle to embrace and to have some faith in or to even have, you know, sometimes when you're starting you're like, you're trying so hard to get to your weird that you've burrowed right past it.

Krisserin:

I tend to think of my weird is that the ideas that I have and the my personal obsessions. But then I think that that's a really interesting thing to think about is voice and how you execute your weird in writing on a sentence level. Because if you were to ask me how to describe my writing style, there is no way in hell that I could tell you. Like, not at all. But what about you? Do you feel like you could describe uniqueness of your written voice?

Kelton:

I would say that my writing is often lyrical. There is like a da da, da to a lot of my writing. I also lean heavily on anthropomorphizing. I think that that's the only two ways I could describe it. I would need someone else to take a lens to it. And I also think that, you know, as I'm really diving into more speed on the novel. It's very clear that my, my novel style is different than my essay style. There are elements that are very similar, but there's almost like, there's almost like this n narrator person in me who just is like, I'm here ready to tell the story. And it's very, very different than me telling a story about, you know, the dirt road. And so it's, I'm interested to see if people like my fiction in that regard, because I think a lot of people who subscribe to my writing are expecting something closer to the essays. And I don't know if they're gonna get that.

Krisserin:

Oh, I can't wait.

Kelton:

I should polish like a chapter and just send it to you just so you have some idea of what's happening.'cause that way you can be like, Kelt, this is bad.

Krisserin:

First of all, I would never, when I give feedback, I say, this is what I love. This is the thing that made me really excited, and here's where I think you could probably refine a little bit more.

Kelton:

Oh my God. Oh, my blood's boiling already.

Krisserin:

What that? Not how you wanna get feedback? Like I'm not gonna tell it. I would never tell anyone if I hated their writing. And believe me, there are some, there are some writing that I've had to read in classes where I'm like, this is, this is awful and it pisses me off and it's sexist or

Kelton:

Oh, no

Krisserin:

Yeah. And the way that I would do that is I would say, this is how I'm interpreting how you wrote this woman. sure that that's what you want your reader to take away from how, what you want them to take away from your story?

Kelton:

feedback. I will look out for from Krisserin. I think you'll like my protagonist just fine though.

Krisserin:

I'm sure I will. So one thing I was thinking about are writers who are taking familiar narratives and using their unique perspectives to find audience. And the one that came to mind was, you haven't read it, we've talked about it in the past, is all fours by Miranda July. I recommended it to a group of my girlfriends who I have a book club with. So, you know, I'm 40, they're all 40 or a little bit older than me. And so the, the idea of reading a book that about perimenopause or menopause was not well received by all of them. I'll just put that, put it that way. Um, but one thing that I really liked about the book, and I related to that some of them hated, was the fact that this is a novel that is basically a midlife crisis narrative, but it's being told from the, the lens of a woman going through perimenopause and someone who completely blows up their life in a way that can be viewed as selfish because she has a child, and a marriage and a home and all of these things. And this is something that we see men do all the time in real life, if not in fiction. And when we were reading the book, it got such a strong reaction from everybody because some people were looking at her story talking about how selfish she was and how gross it like the sex was and all of this other stuff. And, I fucking loved it. For all intents and purposes, if you were to just like, look at this book and look at, and, and read the things that she did, you would say, wow, this is like an incredibly selfish woman. But something about her taking a risk and doing something that would terrify me was really, liberating to read about.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

it was, it's like all of the little things that are in the back of your mind about the decisions you made about your life and the things that you sacrificed in order to do these other things that may be incredibly fulfilling, having a family, being a mother, but then watching a woman like take a look at those decisions she's made and say, you know, so, you know what? Fuck it. I'm just gonna blow it all up and live my life as authentically as I possibly can

Kelton:

Remind me

Krisserin:

that I have.

Kelton:

is all four fiction.

Krisserin:

It is fiction, but did do this in her real life.

Kelton:

Okay.'cause I know that the, the reaction has been so visceral about Miranda July, and I was like, isn't this book just a story? But you know, it's like the truth with women's art. You know, people are very ready to connect it to their life. And not necessarily with, men's as much. I think sh it stuck with her because she was already super famous when she published that book. So, like, it got traction immediately. It would be interesting to know if someone wrote that book as their debut novel, debuting onto the scene of fame, what the reception would have been. But it's, I mean, it's on my long, long to read list. I, you know, like we said, I love a morally grey protagonist. I love reading about someone blowing up their life. Honestly, this just sounds like e pray love, for the modern era. You know, that book started with her blowing up her life and then she just, you know, went on a really long vacation. So also I, there weren't, there weren't children involved and that's like a really big part of it.

Krisserin:

yeah, I think that is what makes it permissible, right, is there's not a young child at home

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

for them to come back. She didn't go on a wild vacation. She went to a motel in Monrovia, so like,

Kelton:

That is one kind of wild vacation.

Krisserin:

yeah, crazy shit in there. Um, and uh, yeah, I think what has been really interesting is that the response to the book has been visceral in both ways. Some people hate it and some people really relate to it. And she has since launched a substack

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

her listeners, for people to read about her in general. But now there's this whole concept of an all fours book club where women are sharing their stories about, they blew up their lives or why they want to, or what they feel like they sacrificed. And I think it is this, there is a universality or, and maybe not every woman feels this way, but you know, what the path looks like for most women when you're born. There is this assumption that we're gonna grow up and we're gonna get married and we're gonna have children. And people who deviate from that path are looked at funny, like, why child free by choice? What's that? You know, like, oh, you choose your career, you're gonna regret that later. Oh, oh, you don't wanna have kids just wait. You're gonna like, the biological clock's gonna tick and then you're gonna wanna have kids. And it's just, think that anytime a woman does something outside of the path, it's interesting to me.

Kelton:

Yeah. And absolutely to me. Um, and I, you know, I, I love my child, but there is a part of me that really misses being a person who didn't wanna have kids. I really loved that identity and was very happy in it for a really long time. And, you know, I've had a lot of great writing come from those feelings too. And I think when you're addressing something that breaks the norm, the thing with a norm is that it's not actually how everyone feels. And so when you break that in your writing, I. It will attract people and delight them. I had one reader who has stuck with me from the very beginning, who told me once, she was like, I don't agree with a lot of your life choices, but I really like to read about them. And I was like, okay, glad to have you along for the ride. I appreciate you. And it's, you know, it's like you want to see other slices of life and you, you also, whenever you have those like weird thoughts in the back of your head when someone else writes about them, when you read that for the first time, it is like, ah, it is so good. I remember. You know, when I was much younger and I had really, really crazy panic disorder and complex PTSD, I always had this feeling that like, when I would go to rooftop parties in New York or I would stand too close to the, the train platform, I was holding a steak knife in the kitchen. I always was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw myself over the edge. I'm gonna stab myself in the stomach. And like, I just, I never wanted to, but I was like, my body's gonna betray me and that's just what's gonna happen. And then I was overwhelmed with anxiety and then I read, I can't remember which book of it his was, it was a Neil Gaiman book, but there was a character in the book who was climbing this really high ladder and was describing exactly this feeling and was like, I'm gonna throw myself off this ladder. I'm not gonna be able to stop myself even though I want to keep climbing. And reading that dark thought in a book, I was like, oh. Oh, so these thoughts are like really normal. Like if this is in like a very popular book, I am really normal. So there's something, there's a big swing between the norm and being normal, where we, we kind of have to write through that space. And when people find themselves in it, you and you touch that nerve, like you said, like maybe not all women feel like they wanna just blow up their life occasionally, but enough do enough are like, I have been following all of these rules and I just wanna break some, you know that when you read it, you get that catharsis and you're like, ah. But of course what comes with that is people hating you inevitably. But when I wrote that dating blog and I got my first death threat, my friend Azi, she was like, you made it. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, this is how I, you know, you're a good writer. Someone hates your writing enough to say they wish you were dead. And I was like, well, okay, well let's frame it then.

Krisserin:

Geez, I don't know if I ever wanna get to that. Maybe I don't wanna get published. That's,

Kelton:

I mean,

Krisserin:

no, I mean, go ahead.

Kelton:

I, I we say, I mean a lot. Um, and I think it's just communicate that it's an extreme, you know, it kind of telling a story and not everything will elicit that response. You know, writing an anonymous blog about having a lot of sex, it's like, yeah, you're kind of guaranteed writing a generational story about how women relate to each other. Like who is even going to read that? That would send you a death threat. This is the nice thing about writing for women is that your death threats go way down. You, you keep that audience tight.

Krisserin:

Keep it tight. Well, all of those intrusive thoughts really prepared you for motherhood then.

Kelton:

Oh yeah. I mean, I think intrusive thoughts are great writing material.

Krisserin:

Absolutely. And it makes sense that people are either going to really relate to them or get really angered by them because people are trying a lot of times push down those intrusive thoughts and

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

trying not to pay attention to them. So when you shine a spotlight on them, makes them mad. Like, I'm trying not to pay attention to these things Kelton, like, please don't shove them in my face. But, I think that that's what makes good writing. I think that we all have things that live in the back of our minds that we are either haven't processed yet or actively trying to avoid or look at every once in a while when we feel brave. But it's good writing that makes us look at things in a new light or understand that the intrusive thoughts that we have, you know, they're not abnormal. I have the same thought when I'm driving, through Topanga I'm like on the curved road and, and I think, oh, I could just drive right off the cliff.

Kelton:

Uh huh.

Krisserin:

Like I would, would never do it. But I think it's just your brain. I think it's like a normal human way of calculating risk.

Kelton:

Yeah. I mean, minds are, mind s are fucked.

Krisserin:

Minds are fucked.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

Minds are fucked. Well, let's talk a little bit about finding the audience for your word. So I mentioned Miranda. Angelina has this like thriving of women who relate to her and talk about their own experiences and now share their experiences, which actually, um, part of the book that she wrote has this storyline about women who, and I forget, forgive me, I forget the name of the condition, but it's like the, the placenta ruptures during birth

Kelton:

Oh, an abruption.

Krisserin:

some, yeah, it's called, there's like a acronym for it, but a lot of women lose their children when that happens during birth. And, in the storyline, part of her birthing story and this other character is that they both had this thing and their children survived, but it was incredibly traumatic. And in the story is this fact that there was a community online of women who had dealt with this and were sharing stories. And it was a big part of her background. So the fact that now there's this online community of women who are sharing their stories about their marriages and, and that is like it's art imitating life, which I think is really cool. But, you know, you talked a little bit last week about how your newsletter is kind of like a American Gothic, like you found your niche in your newsletter and you found an audience for your weird, so I'd love to talk about how you find audience for your weird, how did you cultivate this followership on your newsletter of people who, want to listen to your, your every word, hang on your every word and wait for Shangri Logs to appear in their inbox every week.

Kelton:

Let me say that like I have tried to start many blogs and newsletters. So this is of the two successful blogs and newsletters I've had, they are. Of probably 18 that I tried to start. And some of those I put several months into some just a couple weeks. But a lot of ideas just didn't have legs, didn't, didn't work even though I was like, oh, I, I think this is it. When I started Shangri Logs and was writing about intentional living and nature, I got lucky with a few interesting people finding it and reading it. And the way that I had them find it is that I was active on their channels. And so I was really engaged in comments and, you know, we've talked about like, how do you grow your platform before? But I'm, I try to be incredibly authentic in my comments, and say. Say the weirdest thing I can about what's happening there. And what I really, genuinely want to say to that person, like, my friend Holly Whitaker writes, this amazing substack called Recovering. And she wrote this piece about meeting her, her partner, and in it she just includes this one line about him being a sexual beast. And I was like, I can't not comment on that. And all I saw was, hell yeah. Sexual beast. And it's like, that's the kind of comment though, where like if someone else reads that. They're either gonna be like, I don't like that, that's what she highlighted, or I do. And then they see Shangri Logs, they see the little bestseller badge, which I have mixed feelings about, but they see that they click through, maybe they read. And so I, I think of interacting as like, they're like billboards essentially. And so I'm trying to, one, I wanna just interact with my friends about the things that I love that they're writing. But if someone's gonna see that comment, which is the nature of comments, like occasionally I will just like text Holly instead of going right to her comment field. But if there're, if you're putting a public comment that is for public consumption. And so like, you gotta think about who you're attracting through those methods. I have thought a lot about the fact that Shangri Logs is quite weird. It's a weird title. It's lyrical essays. And you know, and in a substack environment, if you wanna succeed, a way to succeed much faster is to have like a substack, like, I think it's called Slow Living by Molly Ella. She lives in the Scottish Highlands, I think. And you know exactly what that substack is. It's slow living in the Scottish Highlands. And she writes short little pieces about how to be intentional, about slow living. And she has way more subscribers than I do. And I think about this a lot where it's like, yes, there is a version of my newsletter that could be way more advice driven. Because those sorts of things succeed really quick. You wanna see people who have a shit load of subscribers. They're always writing things like investment strategies, how to grow your substack, how to build a capsule wardrobe. It's all these advice how tos. And I have tried to go that path and it is just not me. Like I will write that occasionally because it, it is what's coming to me and I like it. But to try and do that every week, I don't have it. I don't have that much advice to give. You know, I'm not like, go outside and feel the dirt in your fingers this morning. You know? Like rest with the feeling of dirt underneath your fingernails for a day. Just don't wash your hands and see what comes of it at the end of the day. Yeah, that's just not, while I might live like that, that is a thing I've thought and have done. I'm not gonna write that. Not in that way. You know, you might find that somewhere in my writing, but. When we're talking about like finding your weird and finding the niche for your weird, sometimes you have to remember that it, that niche will be small. So it's like when you find your people, that doesn't mean you found millions of them. Like that's the risk of finding your people for your weird, so cautionary tale that I do love Shangri Logs, but asking someone to sit down every Sunday morning to read an essay in this economy, a challenge.

Krisserin:

Oh, I guess one thing that I can take away listening to your description is like anything, no one is gonna get a perfect on the first try, right? You, AB tested your way into a concept that is sustainable for you. And I think that that is really encouraging for me anyway, because it means that you can try and fail and find success on the road, and probably while you're doing that, you're refining the things that are interesting to you and you're just getting better at it as well.

Kelton:

Yeah,

Krisserin:

But I do like the idea of like, commenting on other people's sub stacks and I try and comment on all of my friends' sub stacks or at least open them and read them and like them and all of the things that are helpful. But, what would you say to someone who wants to start a substack? I'm asking for a friend.

Kelton:

well, I'd say you have to have an idea, like your idea does need to boil down to a pitch line. Like when I first started Shangrilogs, it was relocation, renovation, and recreation at 10,000 feet. And it's like that covers a shit load of topics, but it's concise and you know what you're getting. There's a lot of, a lot of times when people start Substacks, they're like, I just wanna write about my feelings and my reactions to the world and culture and the way that, and it's just like you, that is not selling. Like, that might be what you're doing, but you gotta think about your pitch line and boil it down. You can expand way past that pitch line once you have followers, as I often do. But to start, people have to know what they're getting, if they're gonna get it in their inbox all the time. And I'd also say you have to have a schedule. And that schedule could be once a month. It, it could be like it's the first Monday of every month. And I write about ways to not lose your mind in the modern economy. You know, and it's like that covers almost anything. But it has a reason. It's out on a Monday. It's like the first day when you're like, uh, you know, and it's like you can cover yoga, you can cover like how you buy things, you can cover how you organize your cabinets, like whatever. But it's like, have a pitch line, have a schedule, and then subscribe to a bunch of shit and comment on everything, especially if it relates at all to what you're writing. And, and maybe before you launch it, write four pieces. Like, I, I have this problem. That many people share where when I get the initial seed of the idea, I just wanna start, I just wanna make it. And then I get into the making and I'm like, oh, oops. So it's like, just take a breath. Like no one's gonna run away with your idea. Your idea already exists out there probably in a million different ways and in a lot of different levels of quality. So it's like just take the month to do a little pre-scheduling so that you are like, okay, I have the pieces. I can focus on the commenting and I can get into a, a rhythm before I shoot myself in the foot. Because a lot of times it's like you write the first piece and you're like, see you in your inbox next Tuesday, and then work falls apart and you can't get a babysitter. And it's like, you're like, oh my God, it's Tuesday. I said, I would send that. And you're like, well, I'll just, I'll send it tomorrow. And it's like you start the piece with like, sorry, I meant to send this yesterday. And then already your readers are like, what is this? You know, it's like give the guys of professionality unless you are specifically framing yourself as unprofessional.

Krisserin:

Which I don't think anyone really wants. Wants to do.

Kelton:

Yeah. I mean, maybe that is the, the hoot. It's like you also don't need to tell people what day it's coming out, but you should know.

Krisserin:

Yeah. I do love the idea of, and this is kind of goes back to what I was saying I wanna do for, for homework, is sometimes at least I have an impulse to not want to do the pre-work of research to understand how my work is gonna live amongst other people's work.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

going out and looking at sub stacks and what exists out there and, and where your readers could be, is a really important step to do. it's like that conversation we had about reading in your genre, it's. You know, I don't wanna say it's lazy not to do it. It might, there might be some fear related to why people don't wanna do it. Maybe I'm analyzing myself around like why I don't want to do, maybe it's like I'm gonna read all of these substack, I'm gonna read all of these books and think that mine is shit and I'm not gonna wanna do it anymore. Who knows?

Kelton:

Totally.

Krisserin:

it's really important to understand, to do that work and I think it's gonna make you a better writer and a better sub stacker if you know,

Kelton:

Yeah. And

Krisserin:

you

Kelton:

say like I read two Substack that are both written by women who. Run bookshops. And you might think they were incredibly similar. You're like, well, I, if I've got a bookshop, I'm not gonna start it. But they are wildly different and they are both incredible. And so it's like, even if you're like, someone's already writing about intentional mountain living, it's like there's, there's space. Like if you're good, if it's interesting, there's space.

Krisserin:

What are the bookstore substacks that you subscribe to?

Kelton:

Jess Pan who wrote the book, sorry I'm late. I didn't wanna come. She has a Substack called, it'll Be Fun, they said, and she works in a London bookshop. And it is just a hoot, like listening to her talk about her coworkers. And the other is by Katie Clapham, and it's called Receipts from a Bookshop. It is just such a delightful insight into her day. And so Jess Pan's essays are long and interesting, and they take you to places you would just never expect to go. And then she ties such a perfect bow on every package she sends. And then, Katie Clapham is just like, such a wonderful insight into humanity and so charming and funny, and they're such different writers. But they're, they're coming to the writing from this literally the same place. I think Katie Clapper's bookshop is also in England. I might be wrong about that, but it's like, you know, you there, you can figure it out. If Molly Ella can write about slow living so differently and more successfully than I, so can you.

Krisserin:

Well with that, we have a listener question that is specifically for you

Kelton:

Hmm.

Krisserin:

would be fun to, have you answer and because little backstory, when I initially asked Kelton she wanted to do a podcast about writing, I think the text message that you sent to me was something to the effect of, I pulled some tarot cards for the podcast. They look really good. Let's do it.

Kelton:

They did, they were ba I think it was the, like the two of cups, which is basically like you should start a new venture with someone you're close to. Um, and I was like, well, you can't get much more clear than that.

Krisserin:

So, the question is this, and this is from the same listener from last week, BigBlockLetters. Please say more about getting inspiration from tarot cards. Does it create a feeling of being connected with something?

Kelton:

I mean, it, it clarifies my connection with myself, I think is the best way I can describe my relationship to tarot. I have only been reading tarot for maybe two years now, not very long. And I use it as a way to understand my motivations and my fears. And I pull the cards. I have a relationship with my deck. You know, I tried to follow some of, like, the recommendations about how to be in tarot. I asked my deck like what it wanted our relationship to be, and it basically, the cards I pulled described the relationship of being a sister. And so that's how I see my deck when my ritual to read the cards is I have one of the cats, like, give it a headbutt. So it headbutts the deck. And then I, I pull a spread. I'll usually, I make my own spreads. A spread is like however many cards and like what you're asking of them first. So I'll be like, what is holding me back this week? What am I, what should I focus on? And what should, what's gonna bring me, what can I, where can I find joy? And I'll ask it something like that. And I'll pull three cards and then I flip'em, and then I, I don't know all the cards by heart at all now that the child is pulling some tarot cards for fun. He always, he always pulls major arcana, which is like, there's major arcana and minor arcana, and it's very funny to me that he pulls all the cards that are like the simplest, purest form of what's happening in his life. I'm like, oh, you really look at you. But when I pull those cards, I look up the meanings. I don't know all of them. I often, I have a couple books, but if I'm going online, I refer to Biddy Tarot, B-I-D-D-Y. And I just am like trying to suss out what I'm feeling from what the cards are saying. And sometimes that means I'm like, I don't identify with a card, and it helps me clarify. I am like, okay, okay. But my, the cards for me are often incredibly accurate. They're like, you are your own obstacle. You wanna pursue something out of the norm. You're not putting enough time into the thing that you wanna be doing. It like, says that to me every week and I'm like, oh God, I'm trying baby. I'm trying. So, you know, get out of it what you will, if you're starting to get into tarot. There's three people who have, online who have been good guides for me. They're Caroline Cala Donofrio, or Donofrio. Catherine Andrews and Lindsey Mack, all are are great resources to turn to. And there's like a bunch of amazing books you can read. But tarot for me is, it's just a, it's a faster morning pages.

Krisserin:

I don't know if I told you, my mother-in-law throws playing cards,

Kelton:

No.

Krisserin:

like actual, like normal

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

so she'll take the cards and she like blesses them like with the cross, which I find I. So interesting considering like Christianity, hates that shit, you

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

And then she uses just normal playing cards and she like, I think there's like three rows, and then she'll like throw them in different places. And I have no understanding of how derives meaning from any of it. But you know, my husband, and I'll ask her, usually it's like, job related. Like, I'm nervous about this thing. Like, do

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

is gonna happen? But the thing is she always tells us what, what we want to hear, so she'll be like, the money's really good here. Watch out for someone, for someone with dark hair or like, you know, like things

Kelton:

Ah, and I, I think that tarot can be, that, it can be really generic. And, but that's sort of the point. You know, it's like when we talk about how there's only like 10 real stories in the world, you know, like every time you hear that, that's, that is what tarot is doing too. It's a, it's a standard story that starts with like the fool and who moves through this journey of development. And there are obstacles that we all face. And the tarot is just, it's just telling the story that's always been told.

Krisserin:

Telling you where you are on the journey from fool to death? I don't know and rebirth. Very cool. All right, Kelton, let's hear it. What are your goals for next week?

Kelton:

Get a job.

Krisserin:

I.

Kelton:

I mean, unfortunately that is my primary goal. I really don't feel like I can rest until I like know that I can feed my family. So if you, know of any retainer clients, hit your girl up. But no, I think, for the novel it's days. So Ben has a, a job this week that takes him out of the house. And so we're, we've gotta kind of figure out our schedule for, he's doing some cabinetry this week. And so I'll have the baby and I think it's about like first nap will be job hunting and second nap will be writing. And if I just stick to that, we'll just see what second nap delivers for me.

Krisserin:

Okay. Any specific count goal?

Kelton:

No, no, not this time. This, I gotta go easy on myself. This time. I'm just gonna use every second nap to write in the book. She's almost to her destination, you know?

Krisserin:

great.

Kelton:

I can't wait to see what happens when she pulls into the Keep.

Krisserin:

You're winging it. Your pantsing in

Kelton:

I am pantsing it right now. Yeah, I mean, there's still that outline floating in the back of my head, but right now she's just driving and I am in the car.

Krisserin:

Fantastic. My goal this week is really just to to find my comps. I think that is gonna be the best thing for me is just to figure out, what other books would be good for me and other writers that are doing modern writers.'cause obviously the books that I'm,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

Inspired by are things that have been, were written a long time ago,

Kelton:

Right.

Krisserin:

some contemporary peers in my space. So hopefully by this time next week, I'll have three. And I, hopefully I'll, I'll read some of them too. I

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

hopes for that, but you know, at least I'll check'em out from the library or something.

Kelton:

Nice.

Krisserin:

from Barnes and Noble. Yeah.

Kelton:

Oh, well if you do end up going to Barnes and Noble or the library, take us on a field trip.

Krisserin:

Okay. know, this weekend is actually the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books and

Kelton:

I'm so jealous.

Krisserin:

I don't know, I am so busy this weekend. I've got like two birthday parties and, been gone all week. He's gone all next week. So I feel like if I were to be like, I'm going to USC on Sunday, bye, he would kill me. So we'll see if I make it out there, probably not. I do love the Los Angeles Time Festival books. I think I loved it more when it was at UCLA,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

downtown Los Angeles, and it's gonna rain on Saturday, so it'll be interesting to see how the festival goes amongst the rain,

Kelton:

hmm.

Krisserin:

All right, Kelton. Well, I am going to, think good thoughts for you this week. I

Kelton:

Thanks.

Krisserin:

I hope that the time that you get it is filled in a way that makes you feel good, whether you get to write or not,

Kelton:

Thanks.

Krisserin:

Have a great week and to everyone who's listening, please continue to write us at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com. You can shoot us a DM at Pen pals pod on Instagram or TikTok. Give us a follow, leave a comment. You know, love to hear from you. And until next time, happy writing.

Kelton:

Happy writing. Bye.

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Kelton Wright

Co-host
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Krisserin Canary

Co-host