Pen Pals

The Fool, the Villain, and the Wedgie: A Guide to Better Characters

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 1 • Episode 16

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Krisserin and Kelton dive deep into the art of character creation, exploring what makes fictional people compelling, memorable, and real. From their shared love of Murder Bot's sarcastic inner monologue to their hatred of clumsy coffee-spilling protagonists, they dissect the elements that make characters stick with readers long after the last page. The duo discusses developing well-rounded villains (because nobody likes a mustache-twirling baddie), the importance of character interiority without falling into exposition traps, and how everyday details like bathroom habits and eating styles can reveal everything about a person. Plus, Kelton shares her character-building technique of people-watching in real life, while Krisserin reflects on her love for underdog stories and characters fighting against injustice. Whether you're crafting heroes, villains, or that annoying neighbor who chews too loudly, this episode offers practical insights for bringing fictional people to life.

Abby Wolfe's Sounds About Write: "I Wrote Nothing This Week" 

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Krisserin:

What's up, Kelton?

Kelton:

oh boy. What, what is, up, sounds like someone's in a better mood than me.

Krisserin:

Uh, I don't know. I think I'm just at that point in the week where you're like, I guess, uh, we're just gonna struggle through this and try and get to the weekend. It's been a crazy week for me, but I didn't have a sick baby to contend with. So how has, how's it been for you?

Kelton:

Yeah, it was his first time getting sick and so all my plans for the week went out the window, went on Mother's Day. He threw up my back so much I could feel it trickling down the backs of my calves. And I was like, oh, okay. Alright, here we go.

Speaker:

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Krisserin:

I don't mean to laugh, but it was also your first Mother's day.

Kelton:

Yeah, was rough. It was rough. I know he doesn't listen, so I feel fine saying, um, no card, no present, no early out of bed to make me anything. It was just like, once we both got up, he was like, do you want pancakes? And I was like, yes, yes, I want pancakes. Get kitchen.

Krisserin:

Oh,

Kelton:

Uh, yeah, it was, uh, it was not a great, not a great time, but yeah, my week went out the window and today, just so everyone is tuned in, um, today is the hormonal rage day of my cycle. So this morning I was like, why am I so mad? And then I looked at my little Clue app and was like, aha. The day has come. I'm not actually mad, I'm just experiencing a surge of hormones. Lucky me, I.

Krisserin:

well, I guess it's a good thing we did the AI episode last week.

Kelton:

Yes. Can you imagine? Oh, I would've been unhinged.

Krisserin:

Can I just say I kind of hate Mother's Day?

Kelton:

Do you?

Krisserin:

Yeah, I kind of do. I mean, I try and go out of my way to make my mom my stepmom and my grandmother feel special on that day. But I, and maybe I'm just a brat and maybe it's just me, but I am like constantly disappointed on Mother's Day. This Mother's Day. I dragged Boyan and my children to do what I wanted to do, but it's not the same as like a little bit of forethought and a little bit of planning.

Kelton:

And I like, love holidays. Ben hates holidays on principle. He is just like, is there corny? And he just like hates when all of humanity like agrees to spend money. Which, you know,

Krisserin:

The same way.

Kelton:

I like, I get it. Like I, I am also an anti-capitalist, but I, I do also wanna be celebrated the first time Mother's Day comes around and I'm a mom

Krisserin:

I know it sucks,

Kelton:

was,

Krisserin:

man.

Kelton:

because like he and I are both also thread bare and he's been working so much at a job he fuck and hates just to make extra money since I lost my gig. So like the, the love is there, but I just, my love language, you'll not be surprised is words of affirmation.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

Um, and I just, you know, it's like write a card on a paper bag and then use to

Krisserin:

Honestly,

Kelton:

trace a little, you could just fucking anything. And I'd be like,

Krisserin:

I know,

Kelton:

you thought of me.

Krisserin:

I know, I know. I, you know, I just wanna shout out all the teachers out there that every year, make sure that the kids write something for their mothers, because that's.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

Pretty much the extent of what I got from Mother's Day, which I definitely enjoyed. Ren wrote a, like a, you know, fill in the blank card, and she said that I was 71 years old and my favorite thing to do was sleep. And I was like, she knows me well.

Kelton:

Shout out to my dad. Who was the first person to say Happy Mother's Day to me at like 5 45 in the morning via text.

Krisserin:

Oh, that's sweet. Actually, my dad and my stepmom sent me flowers. That was really nice.

Kelton:

that's

Krisserin:

Yeah. And then you, I get,

Kelton:

flowers here.

Krisserin:

Well, I've just learned for my birthday and for Mother's Day, just make sure I buy myself stuff and celebrate myself. But enough kvetching about how unappreciated we are. Let's talk about writing. So with Woods sick, I'm assuming you didn't get out of the house to narrate your novel too much.

Kelton:

No, I'm like, the few times I was walking with him outside, I was just so tired because he's just up all night, you know, like screaming and thrashing. So I, you know, I just let this week pass.

Krisserin:

Yeah. Well, you did send me a section of your novel

Kelton:

sections,

Krisserin:

sections. disconnecting

Kelton:

sections of said novel. Did you read two chapters of Luster?

Krisserin:

You know, I was looking and I've actually, I'm almost a hundred pages. The chapters are really long.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

Um, so they actually take a while to get through. She writes, so I'm in chapter four and I think when last we spoke I was on chapter two. So yeah, I did achieve that goal.

Kelton:

You did.

Krisserin:

Um, and what was interesting about chapter four is that she starts the chapter opening with the history of the family of the main character. And I have obviously this like multi-generational story happening and I've written flashbacks in whole chapters and the way that she's doing is a little bit different. Where she is is part of the chapter of present day storytelling, but she uses it to frame what's going on in modern day. So I really liked how she did it and it made me think a little bit about how I'm structuring my book.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

got part one of feedback from one of my Alpha readers, and that was great. And the sections of the book that she had feedback on were actually like the flashback sections. She was like, this feels really long for a flashback. And then I was playing with these interludes and she was like, I have no idea what these are about, but. You learn at the end what they're about. So I'm kind of, I wanna wait until she's like, finished finished and see if she understands that, or if it just completely falls flat. But yeah, I remember, I, I asked you, I'm like, why am I, I'm reading the comps for why, I don't know. But now I feel like I'm, I'm learning a little bit more about structure in a way that I think I could, yeah. So I feel good about that. But my other goal is to wake up early and look at my, the second book and my speculative fiction series. And I did do that and I woke up early twice this week. It's Thursday, so, you know, two out of four days. But, I realized that if I wanted to start working on that again, I'm gonna need to print out the whole like, 50,000 words that I've already written and go through them, because I am completely, I, for, I've forgotten so much of what's happened. I was pleasantly surprised. I was like, oh, this isn't that, this isn't bad. Okay. Like. That makes me feel like, you know what, sometimes you go back to something you've written and you're like, oh my God, this is horrible.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

So I felt good about that, but yeah, I spent most of those mornings reading'cause I was a little intimidated by trying to reignite that other book. But I do think that if I'm gonna get anything done, I'm just gonna have to wake up early. It's just too hard. With this new job, I'm working until like 7 30, 9 30 at night

Kelton:

Yeah,

Krisserin:

schlepping the kids. So I'm, I just think if I'm gonna get anything done, I'm gonna have to get up early. And I have not been getting a lot of sleep. Not I've gotten more than you, but still like five to six hours a night. So I gotta figure my life out. But yeah, that was my week.

Kelton:

Oh, man. Well, I'm glad that you got some feedback and that you're finding use in your comps. That's nice. Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

and I did get, Emma Cline's book from Libby now, so I have it on my Kindle and I have the physical book and I feel like that will make me more primed to read it. I also got another book in the Robin Hobb series, so I've been reading that

Kelton:

did. Of course she did. I mean, I get it. Whatever. I've got like a TBR list, stacked to the kitchen counter. So

Krisserin:

man. I know, I just, after you, that question you asked me has been haunting me. Like, what are you gonna read after Robin Hobb? And I was like, I know the wheel of time. What other 20 book series can I read? You know?

Kelton:

Amazing.

Krisserin:

Uh, I want, you know, I think this is a good segue because the reason I'm so invested in these books is because I'm living with these characters for such a, a long amount of time. And this week we wanted to talk about characters. I really, what you said about, did I hate this book or did I just hate spending time with these characters? Really stuck with me. And by the way, we have a John Krakauer apologist in our comments on TikTok. So I thought we could talk about characters this week and, what makes a character compelling for you and for me?'cause I feel like it's probably different and then what makes a bad character? And then how we write character, because I feel like that is how people do that. I do it in one way. I love to hear how you do it, but just to start, I was, the premiere of Murder Bot Diaries is tomorrow.

Kelton:

I know.

Krisserin:

My mom's listening to the first two books again to get ready for it. And I was thinking about it. I was thinking about the story and I guess to some extent you kind of need to read those books in order, but Murder Bot is such a good character that you could just write a completely new story around Murder Bot and it would probably work. Right. What is it about Murderbot that you love so much? Then I can, I can talk about why I love Murder Bot's character

Kelton:

I think one of the strong parts of how Martha Wells writes the Murderbot Diaries is that there is, so it is basically all inner monologue. and there there are moments when murder bot, you know, talks or screen shares or texts, but it's so much of like the dirty part of a character that's not. That you wouldn't share publicly and for me, you know, I had an old coworker of ours, I think I mentioned this before on the podcast, tell me that Murderbot reminded him of me. And like Murderbot is just so frustrated with other people's incompetency and it's just like, ugh, get it together you pathetic little humans. And that's such a, such a relatable for me, feeling for a character to have where they're just like, can we just get the work done? And there's, there's this o other side of Murderbot where it's like, it just wants to enjoy tv.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

wants to watch TV and its programs and be left alone. And I feel like, you know, a great deal of the population can relate to that, especially if you were the person who's like, really into sci-fi. You know? I almost guarantee that you're like, can other people just shut up for a minute so I can enjoy the things that I enjoy? I find that very relatable because on, on top of his frustration, or I'm saying his now because it's Alexander Skarsgard, he always steps up too. Murder bot always does the job, will always defend people, is at its core good, chaotic, good, but at its core good. And so that's, I think, other characters I've read in the past who are also like a humanity they're not also good. I'm like, well, you know, fuck off.

Krisserin:

Right.

Kelton:

But it's, it's murder bot's. Goodness. Paired with that frustration that I think really enamored me, I am

Krisserin:

Good.

Kelton:

by.

Krisserin:

Good. Despite what he really wants to do. Right. And I, I guess interiority is such an important part of characterization, and I don't know about you, but it's something that I really struggle with writing, because it can veer into expository writing, which is something that we're all told we're not supposed to do. And also can veer into the telling instead of showing type of writing. So there's a really, you know, fine line of trying to figure out how can I express to the reader I think especially when you're writing in third person, maybe it's a little bit easier in first person. How do you explain to the reader the values, the thoughts, the feelings, the emotions of this person? Without going off on this like long tangent about things, sometimes when I'm reading a book, I'll start getting bored and I'll just kinda skim through the

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

Do you ever find yourself doing that?

Kelton:

I skim, I don't know if it's specifically the interiority. I was skimming part of an Emily Henry novel last night, and it was like, I, okay, I, I know what's happening here. I wanna get to the good stuff.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

know that it was interiority, or if there was some plot point I was missing, but I was like, Uhhuh uhhuh.

Krisserin:

How, how about you, do you struggle with writing interiority at all?

Kelton:

I dunno. I mean, I genuinely don't know. I know that you took a look at my pages and I haven't had a chance yet to see what you said. My main character right now has had a really lonely life. And so she talks to herself all the time. This is something I also do. I talk to myself constantly. So much so that Ben has stopped responding when I'm talking to him because he has no idea who I'm talking to. so I wanted to write a character who, like me, is like engaging with the physical world around her as if it's interacting with her. And then, you know, the thing in my novel is that eventually it does. but, when I, I'm just thinking about interiority and, and the show Don't tell part. And I do think that there's like a show and elaborate kind of thing that has to happen. Like if I'm imagining character who's about to walk into a bar, hot girl. don't know for sure yet if she knows she's hot or not. She's wearing a short skirt before she walks in. You have that character tug down her skirt, there's two really different directions you could take it. You could be like the character tugged down her skirt. She could feel all the eyes on her before she was even inside the bar, or the character tugged down her skirt, let it ride up over the course of the night so you can leave them wanting more and more. it's like those are both like how the character is thinking and you're telling.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

they're thinking, but you kind of, if you just say the character tugged down her skirt, then you're leaving it up to how the reader would feel walking into that room to interpret what that means. And you Yeah, you could like show more and more. Like, she hunched her shoulders and she looked wearily around the room. You know, it's, but it's like at some point you gotta like add that oomph to be like, this is what's happening for this character. You know, you don't need to be like, she tugged down her skirt because she wanted to be a whore later. I don't, you know, it's like, I don't know how far telling goes, so I, I don't know is the answer. You read my pages, was there a

Krisserin:

I did.

Kelton:

interiority.

Krisserin:

That's a good question. I wasn't really looking at it through that lens. I was trying to. Figure out like, what are the questions that are pulling me through this? What are the things that I'm interested in that I wanna learn more about? And I do think that you did a really good job, and you can, you'll read it in the notes that I sent over. But you do a really good job of establishing Bren's character very early. And very clearly, in the book, it's someone that you sympathize for, root for, wanna see what they're gonna do next because she's interesting. She has an interesting way of looking at stuff. Or spoiler alert she finds her mom face down in a lean cuisine and she's like, well shit, now this is something I've gotta deal with, you know? And it's like, oh, okay. Like this is how we're dealing with this situation. So, I think how the characters react to the things that are thrown in their path is definitely, to your murder bot point tells us a lot about who they are and why we wanna be interested in them, because you don't, characters that do unsurprising things and live, you know, boring lives or have mainstream thoughts are not characters that we really wanna read. I think, for me, what I am really interested in is people that are dealing with unfairness or injustice or like bristling against something really hard and difficult and are at a disadvantage. I like that underdog story. So when I'm reading your story and I'm reading about Bren, I'm like, okay, God. Like she's got all this shit she's gonna have to deal with and, a family that sounds awful. And all of these circumstances that now she's gonna have to figure out and how is she gonna get through it if she opened up and saw her mom, you know, passed away and she went through grief and she was sad and oh, we had a strained relationship, but now she's gone. And I'd be like, this sounds familiar. This isn't as interesting as how you wrote it. So, I think that when I read your, her speaking aloud. I was like, oh, is this house also sentient? Is this box sentient? Is she magical? Like, so it piqued my interest. Her behaviors are interesting. Her, quickness to lies is interesting. You want people who do surprising things, Murderbot's, fascinations with soap operas when they're going out there and you know, their job is to murder things. It's interesting. So it is, it is the, the, the surprising elements that I think make a good character.

Kelton:

Yeah. And surprising things that pay

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

that make sense later.'cause I do hate when a character does something where I'm like, what? Why?

Krisserin:

Why?

Kelton:

would they have done that?

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

done that? And that, that, you know, sometimes it's clear when you're like, they did it for the plot. And if that character isn't someone who quote unquote, does things for the plot, now that, that's become like a saying, then it, then it, it frustrates me. Doesn't, when it doesn't add up, B bugs me.

Krisserin:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think we don't expect our characters to make all the right decisions. We read tons of books where you're like, why are you doing this? Like, don't you see what's gonna happen if you do that? But then they do those things and, you know, there are consequences and they learn from it and they grow from it and it makes sense, but it has to make sense, I think like going

Kelton:

like why they chose it.

Krisserin:

Exactly.

Kelton:

You know, I as the reader can be like, oh, you poor idiot. You don't know. You know,

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

it's like when you're watching a scary movie and it's, you are like, are there no scary movies in the universe? These characters are from, like, you don't split up, know. And there are some scary movies who have used that as fuel, where characters have seen these movies and they're like, no, no, no. That's what they want us to do. And I love that. Like a cabin in the woods I think is a great example. But other than characters who are making choices that were like, this is stupid. What else drives you crazy about a character?

Krisserin:

Well, I, I think my big, peccadillo. The thing that I hate the most is a bad villain. I hate a, um, I. Poorly drawn villain. I want a good villain. I want a villain that I almost wanna root for.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

you know, in Sabaa Tahir's Ember in the Ashes series, there is this horrible, evil character. And a huge part of that series is finding out why she is the way she is. And I, I think that that is really good storytelling when the villain, not that we're excusing their behavior, but there's a reason that people rot from the inside, right? And I want to know, not only am I in awe of how evil this character is, but I wanna know what happened to make them that way.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

So when there is a bad person or a villain in a character, and I'm, and I don't see any. You know, other side of like why they do the things they do. I'm just like, this is not good characterization. This isn't good writing. I hate that.

Kelton:

when I have a problem with the villain is when I actually do agree with them. Then I'm like, oh no. Like in the Marvel Cinematic universe, Thanos, hard to disagree with a man who's like species have rotted all their planets and it's time to just get rid of half of'em. And the most equitable way to do it is just to like flash half out. know, they won't feel any pain and I'm not choosing and we will restore the beauty back to the ecosystem. And like Ben and I were watching that being like, I, I don't hate this guy. I don't hate this guy. You're telling me I'm supposed to root against this guy that these Avengers who can't like, agree on anything and are mean to each other and are constantly bickering. Those are the people I'm rooting for who are just letting people die left and right. You know, it's just like I, you know, when I have trouble with villains is when I'm like, I that I see their point,

Krisserin:

So I do think it can go too far. There is a book that everyone on TikTok is talking about right now that is called, what is it called? Silver Elite. Have you heard of this book?

Kelton:

I have not, no.

Krisserin:

So the way that it was described is. Hunger games if instead choosing Peeta Katniss falls in love with a GameMaker and then decides that the people in the capitol aren't that bad.

Kelton:

I kind of wanna read it.

Krisserin:

I think it's, it has been labeled as pretty problematic. But I mean, you can't win for losing these days, I guess. But, it's getting tore up on book talk, so.

Kelton:

I don't wanna read it.

Krisserin:

Yeah. Sounds like a horrible book. Um, might be fun. Who knows? Someone said in the comments, I have enemies to lovers too close to the sun with this book.

Kelton:

That's good. That's good.

Krisserin:

Uh, but yeah, I mean, I think I need to, if for all books. You know, the characters have to be well-rounded. I need to see if they're, if they're an antagonist, I really still wanna know what's good about them. And that's something that I feel like, in the book that I'm working on right now, I'm struggling with.'cause I feel like the husband in my story is a villain.

Kelton:

Hmm.

Krisserin:

his, his good characteristic is meant to be that he loves this main character and he loved her but he betrays her. And I don't know if I did a good enough job of making him a well-rounded person in my story. So it'll be interesting to hear what my Alpha readers have to say about that. But it's not easy work to do because you really, when you're writing a story, you're focused on the main character and there's all these other people in it, but they have to be fully formed. And I don't think it's an easy thing to do.

Kelton:

no,

Krisserin:

not.

Kelton:

It's hard. And you need to be able, to step away from the story and, and really think about their motivations. You know, I have a, a smattering of villains in my story, and trying to think about the ways that they are good in addition to bad is, you know, it's, it's a creative challenge.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

think I've kind of figured out where their goodness comes from or what they think is good. And it's, I, you know, an argument can be made for those things, but I, that's a important element of the character.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

You know what I hate in a character?

Krisserin:

Tell me

Kelton:

I hate clumsy bitches as characters.

Krisserin:

in, in real life as well.

Kelton:

If, if a character is spilling their coffee on someone in a coffee shop or walking out of the bathroom with their skirt tucked into their or their underwear, you know, if they are just doing something embarrassing to set them up as like a, every man, I'm like, get out of my house, get out, get this book into a free compost library. I hate that kind of character. And you are right. Not a huge fan in real life, but I in real life, those people are, you know, they're, they're hurried, they're genuine, they're kind in a book. It is a old trope.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

someone up as likable, and I'm like, come on, come on. You're rushing so fast. When have you ever rushed so fast with your boss's coffee that you spilled it on somebody

Krisserin:

I mean, not since like 1980, right? Like, who's doing that anymore? I have to tell you, by the way, you inspired my mom to start a short story. When you talked about, you know, getting the coffee and it like landing on the, the love interest, and you were like, unless this person is dissolving right in front of her, it gave her an idea for, so she's been working on a short story because of what you said. So just so you know.

Kelton:

amazing. I did mention that in an earlier episode if you didn't listen that like you can do those things if you're gonna do something interesting with them. But if it's just so that the love interest can reassure the person, like, no problem. I have another shirt in my car. You know, whatever it is. I, you know, I just, I also just that very idea that having a coffee spill on your shirt somehow compromises your ability to get the promotion. it's like I would just walk into the interview and be like, yeah, someone in Starbucks was like running a marathon and just smashed right into me and poured their coffee on me. Too bad I wasn't hot enough to sue'em. You know, it's like I'm not gonna get hired because somebody else, whatever. Anyways, it's a trope that I hate.

Krisserin:

Well, I think it speaks to a bigger problem and I was thinking about this. There are so many books where the characters that I love and I am rooting for are not the main character, and I actually think is like the band, the merry band that helps the main character along that oftentimes are way more interesting and compelling to me because a lot of times. And I don't know if you feel this way, the main character who's meant to be this, you know, if it's a romance novel or a like a romantasy, they kind of suck. Like they're kind of boring people, you know, they're thrown into a situation and they have to navigate it fine. But it is the people around them that I feel like make them more interesting and they're always like the most beautiful or they have this like special thing that makes them different and more important than everybody else. But really like outside of that, it's kind of, there's no, there's no there there. And I think that especially in romance novels, the main characters kind of boring.

Kelton:

I mean, looking at Feyre, that's why

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

gets her own book and it's like a hoot.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

but yeah, that, I think that's totally true. Especially the like something special about them. Element.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's something that they can't even control, right? So it's just like God given that they have this ability that nobody else has and they have to navigate it, and then everyone's obsessed with them because of it. And it's like, it's not how real life works. Real life doesn't work that way. We're all the same. I guess that's a like fantasy novel, thing, but even in like

Kelton:

fantasy novels though, where the person has the thing and then they find other people who also have the thing,

Krisserin:

sure.

Kelton:

get the humbling, you know, where

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

even know how to use, you

Krisserin:

Yeah, yeah,

Kelton:

like, you know, you're like, I'm a really good singer. And then you get into Julliard and you're like, oh, so are you got, gotta have more than that.

Krisserin:

yeah. I gotta work harder than that. And I guess it is a formula in a romance novel. Right. That the man, the main character's love interest has to think that this person is the best thing that's ever happened. That's the whole point, is that they're falling over themselves to win the hand of the, the main female character. The main, I hate the word female. I hate that word. Woman character.

Kelton:

who's like a 20th of their age.

Krisserin:

Yeah. Right. Like

Kelton:

Or it's like, I've been alive for 700 years, but this 19-year-old, she is really talking the truth. Like,

Krisserin:

she's mature for her age.

Kelton:

when like a 25-year-old guy likes a 19-year-old, I'm like, get it together buddy. Like,

Krisserin:

Yeah. Honestly, it's really hard to read books about people that are that young. Right. It feels weird as a 40-year-old.

Kelton:

gap elements in my book, that eventually come up, because time doesn't move the way it's supposed to in my book. And so some of the chiropractors do grapple with that later where they're like, yeah, but you've been alive for like a long time.

Krisserin:

Are there any other characters that you partic particularly love, memorable characters?

Kelton:

Memorable.

Krisserin:

that because the reason I'm reading the Robin Hobb books is the characters are so good and especially there's one character called The Fool that is this, enigma of a person and we don't know anything about where they came from or even like what their gender is. And they're shape shifting and they have a very clear goal, which is having to change the course of what's happening to ensure the survival of humanity. And sometimes the decisions that they make make no sense, until later on. But watching to see what they do and knowing that in their heart, kind of like murder bot, that there is this goodness, this like, you know, ultimate goal of, of helping people that makes that character really compelling. That you wanna root for them, and follow along in their story. But it is, to your point that you made about John Krakau there, you know, there, there are characters that just stay with you and that stay with me over time that I think about often, you know,

Kelton:

I gotta be honest, the characters that stick with me are the ones I hate.

Krisserin:

really. When I was thinking about this, I think about like Ripley from Alien. You know, like these are the characters that like stick in my mind

Kelton:

My number one

Krisserin:

forever.

Kelton:

of all time is Indiana Jones.

Krisserin:

Okay.

Kelton:

Um, and I had a friend who told me, she was like, I think like the main difference between me and you is that when I was little, I wanted to date Indiana Jones, and when you were little, you wanted to be Indiana Jones. And I was like, I absolutely did. I majored in archeology. I, mean that character to me is another kind of murder bot character. I love that character because I deeply relate to them. He doesn't wanna talk to anybody. He doesn't have time for anyone's bullshit. He's very serious about what he does. He's really good at it. And he's also hot and charming. So what a package. And it's like just going on adventures riding horses, sailing the high seas. Like again, we talked about the true confessions of Charlotte Doyle, my favorite children's book. And I loved the main character'cause she was like, why can't I be a swashbuckler? She was like, who are you to say I can't swash buckle? So, and that, you know, that for me is everything I relate to in a character is I don't wanna be surrounded by idiots and I want to do the big challenge. And so I love characters like that. And part of what my character will learn in the, the book I'm writing too, is that there is a benefit to community. So like most of the fiction characters I write start from a place of severe independence and personal isolation that they've often opted into. And that they just feel like they're better off alone. They feel like they can do it better alone. They can take care of themselves more alone. And that bringing people into their lives merely complicates things and people always disappoint you. so the thing that my characters always have to learn is that like, yeah, people will disappoint you, but that doesn't mean there's not a benefit to community and to being part of that, to being called on and relied on, and that you can still have independence in that. you know, I write that because I'm trying to teach myself that all the time.

Krisserin:

That's so interesting.'cause I feel like that's, I take a similar tack in the characters that I love and the characters that I write about. You know, Jane Eyre is one of my favorite characters of all time, and it's people who are victims of circumstance, for reasons that are outside of their control, whether it's because of class issues or money issues or whatever it may be, but there's a sense of injustice that this person is put into this place, and they climb out of it despite all of the, the hurdles that are put in front of them, despite their negative self-talk. Despite, other people trying to tear them down, they still end up succeeding and proving everybody wrong and coming out on the other side, better off than anyone ever could have imagined. And I feel like that's because I've had to do that in my life where coming from, a poor background. And then being thrust into privilege and having to deal with those people has really shaped me and the stories that I like to read and the stories that I like to tell. But I, maybe this is also why I like Korean dramas so much because there is such a class divide in Korean dramas and injustice because of that. And I love those stories. Like my, I literally, like, when I watch stories that have that really strong sense of injustice, my hands hurt. I get so into it that like my physical body starts to ache. And I, I love that. That's what I want to read about and what I like to write about. But, um, well, let's

Kelton:

an

Krisserin:

talk about,

Kelton:

that's an element of write what you know, you know,

Krisserin:

yeah.

Kelton:

you know, you're, you're kind of writing a story that you're familiar with, and so am I, you know, it's like I ran away when I was seven and left my parents a note that says I got it from here. So it's like, you know, you kind of, I am writing myself into a lot of these books. But I think the real joy for me is like the other characters that I get to craft and meet along the way and their influence on that story that I wanna keep telling. I also, I love the story that you're telling. Like, I love those stories, the underdog stories. Oh yeah. Sign me up.

Krisserin:

And I love the, the fiercely independent characters that are just like, I am going to do this thing. It's so inspiring.'cause I feel like we all wanna be that way. We all just wanna be fearless and just go after whatever it is we want. So watching other people do it is almost empowering in a sense. But that brings me to the question around how do you, we've talked about this, I think like, was it the first ever second episode we talked about writing about people that we know.

Kelton:

Yeah, it was early.

Krisserin:

It was very early. How do you develop characters? How, what in, like, how do you find your inspiration for your character? Not, not so much the maybe Yes. The main character. I think we just covered that, but the cast of characters in general that you write about.

Kelton:

Oh, you know, I scratch this from the record, but based on people I meet, every book you read is like, this is not based on anyone in the real world, but my characters often are an amalgamation of people I have met in the real world. Like there is this guy that we, used to come across when we lived in California, who was so nice, just like you run into all on the street, have like a great conversation, nice guy, but then was such a fucking stickler, such a rule follower. Like there are all these trails in Topanga that are not maintained, they're not forest service or everything. And he was like, we need to have a town committee that manages these trails. And it was like, the next time there's a tree down, just bring your fucking saw. Why do we have to make this such a thing? But then he was so lovely and then he would send all these follow up emails to these like committees we were on. And it was so annoying. And I, I held him in my mind as a character because I was like, how could someone be so delightful and so irritating? That to me, in my mind when I meet people like that, I'm like character study. I am thinking about this person as a character.'cause it's interesting, you know, they're dynamic and they surprise me and I like them and I don't like them. And so when I think about my characters, I am thinking about some of those elements. in your real life, you know, you meet all these people who are just people. know, it's like they're not your soulmate, not your best friend. You're not like, think about how rare it is to meet like another woman and be like, I wanna get drinks with her. I gotta find a way to be friends with her. And it's, you know, it's not like you can't have that feeling with a bunch of people after you've gotten to know them. But it is kind of rare to have that like, Ooh. And so I'm like, what are all these other people up to? Why don't they have the ooh for me? What, what is the ooh they give to other people? You know, the haha. And so I'm watching people, I'm watching people in my life and I'm taking notes. Sorry guys.

Krisserin:

I love the, ooh. Ha ha. No, It makes me think of Mr. Collins in Pride and Prejudice,

Kelton:

Hmm.

Krisserin:

excellent

Kelton:

vegetable,

Krisserin:

boil.

Kelton:

uh.

Krisserin:

character that's so annoying, but so thrilling to watch, you know, and how, how he, what's the word I'm looking for? The way that he acts with, lady Catherine de Bur, you know,

Kelton:

a great character because

Krisserin:

mm-hmm.

Kelton:

person,

Krisserin:

No,

Kelton:

but you hate him.

Krisserin:

yeah, because he's gonna make all of them homeless. He's gonna inherit the whole, you know, but that's not his fault. It's, it's soci. It's how it was, it was the law, which is why Jane Austin's books are so great because it's pitting the plight of, a woman in society. And she was not a woman that was living a normal existence in, you know, what was it, ge like Georgian, Edwardian England at the time, you know? But that's incredible. Yeah. So I, I feel like. I, I have to admit, it is very similar for me, in terms of how I'm getting inspiration for characters. There's just some people that you meet that you have to immortalize, there's this man, and I didn't really actually meet him or interact with him, but he was a legend in Apple Valley and we called him, why know, Mike Wino mike was the, like the town drunk that would pat me, passed out on the side of the street. And it was almost like a boogeyman, you know? You like, oh yeah, I drove down and saw Wino Mike doing this, that, or the other thing. And it's horribly sad for Wino Mike, that that was his existence because we're talking about living in the middle of nowhere where the closest liquor store or wine shop had to be so far. I don't even know how he would sojourn to get drunk. Being drunk all the time as he was. I said this before, people who live on the outskirts of civilization are fascinating. Like yourself, you know, it's like what drove them to go find this little corner of existence and how did they live there? So I do think that there are just some people that you want to capture forever because they they live by their own rules.

Kelton:

Yes, for sure. And they live kind of in a way that you can't comprehend. And I, I think often about, I think it was NK Jemison who said, in world building, you need to think about how your characters go to the bathroom. Like if you're building a whole new world. How do they get food? How do they go to the bathroom? You know, because you, it's like you don't need to incorporate that into your novel, but your world should be so sturdy that those things make sense within it. And I've actually used that thinking with my characters. I'm like, how does this character go to the bathroom? You know, like, do they leave if they're home alone do they leave the door open? You know, do they have, are they the kind of person who stocks toilet paper are they hob need walk in and through the house to the kitchen to grab the paper towel roll when no one's home. It's, it's interesting to think about, you know, I'm like, who is this? What kind of wild person is this? Are they gonna hop in the shower? Tell me some answers. So I do think about their everyday life, you know, like we had mentioned, are thinking about why does the book start for this character now? Like, what. been alive this whole time, so why are we just meeting them?

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

and so I, I wanna know what's happening the week before that, like how are they living in that life? And that helps me flesh out some of these characters a little more, especially the villains where you know, villains like probably working on their master plan, but they're also just living,

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

before we meet them for a long time. And you gotta think how they got there and, how they operate in their world. So when I'm, when I have a base of a character, I go into their house and I'm like, okay, we're you have nothing to do today. What are you doing?

Krisserin:

Yeah. How does your character take a shit

Kelton:

Yeah. How do they take a shit? You know, are they constipated? Are they drinking enough water? Do they think about that?

Krisserin:

in their diet?

Kelton:

Yeah. Is there fruit in this landscape? You know. Are they eating

Krisserin:

Yeah,

Kelton:

I have actually really been struggling with do my characters eat because there's time stuff and magic stuff. I've been thinking about this a lot.

Krisserin:

see, I love, there's always food and eating in my stories. I like to zoom in and I think that you learn so much about a person by the way that they eat. I remember, and maybe this is me like being adaptive to a different social class, and being a good mimic. I remember learning how to eat properly as I would go to fancier restaurants and like watch what other people were doing. And I remember I worked with this woman and I think she had like a very normal upbringing, but the way she held her fork and ate, I was like, you are a cave woman. Like, who taught you to hold a utensil? And maybe it's, I'm just being petty or mean.'cause I also didn't like this person very much'cause she wasn't very nice to me. But I'm like, someone should tell her

Kelton:

That's so.

Krisserin:

holding, like, she would like hold it like this and like eat like this, you know? And for the people who are listening, it was like a, like a claw holding her fork and not even like the angle of her wrist. It was bizarre. It was bizarre. But those, those, to your point, those details are really telling and interesting, you know.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

When they eat a chicken wing, are they cleaning the bone?

Kelton:

Oh

Krisserin:

or are they just like

Kelton:

conjuring

Krisserin:

nibble?

Kelton:

I remember from my life who used to just like, we would be like, th we worked in a very close proximity and he was my boss, and we would be like three feet apart and he would just be,

Krisserin:

Oh no.

Kelton:

just the eating possible. And I think, I think about that man, I think about that. I wanna write that man into a book so bad. He can't be in this one. People are, are, uh, that's not who's in this book, but

Krisserin:

I cannot listen to people smacking their lips and I hate gum, like chewing the sound of people chewing gum. So that would just drive me wild. I try and keep it to myself because that's my problems to other people's problems. But.

Kelton:

also like a great thing. I, um, I do have like a, a list somewhere. It's written, I think it's in one of my older journals when I was thinking about things that drive me crazy that other people do, I was like, I'm gonna write them down so that I can write them into something.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

because even if you're writing a personal essay, if you describe feeling, I was irritated in a way where it felt like someone had been chewing the same piece of gum next to me on the subway for an hour. You can kind of sink into that. When someone says that, you're like, Ugh,

Krisserin:

Yeah, totally.

Kelton:

so having those things helps flesh out your character if they're just smacking their gum next to you, like they don't care who's around them. They have no personal awareness. You know, there's like little elements like that that you can weave in.

Krisserin:

Yeah, and like the things that your character hates, the things that other people do that drive your character crazy.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

are fun. Those are fun little things to include, but also a great list to keep would be like things that people do that you love, you know? Um, I, I also am a big, like my other languages are words of affirmations and acts of service and, um, little things like my stepdad will always put gas in my mom's car and it doesn't always fills the tank for her. Never, even if it gets to half it's full by the time she's in it again. And so I do that for my mother-in-law and I didn't think about it'cause I was kind of taught by, my stepdad to do that. Um, and those little things like that, that are such sweet things that you can put to your characters also so that you're, you don't have to say, this person loves me or this person loves this person. It is the little things that people do that show love. And so those are also great things to write down for characterization.

Kelton:

No, that's showing and not telling.

Krisserin:

That's right. And by the way, when you said the woman walked into the bar and tugged down her skirt, I'm like, she must have a wedgie, because that's always my problem. I need some new underwear or something. All these high-waisted pants are doing me in, man.

Kelton:

That is amazing. I do wanna know from the listeners, like if you have any funny ways that you're developing characters or any basic ways. who's to say they're ha ha funny, but I wanna know, I wanna know what you're up to and how you're making'em.

Krisserin:

Yeah, I wanna know too.

Kelton:

out of us, which one's the villain?

Krisserin:

I don't wanna know. Don't, I don't wanna know. If you're writing about me, don't tell me.

Kelton:

Alright. What's your goal for this week?

Krisserin:

well, shit, I didn't even think about it. Kelton. Um, probably the same as before. I don't know what to do next. I was thinking about this like, okay, so I, the first part of feedback that I got from my alpha reader was like, this is great. I think it's ready to send to agents. And I was like, I don't know about that. I think that there's probably a lot more work to do. So I don't know I will probably do a round of edits when I get that. But then like, I don't know, do I wanna hire an editor again? I don't, I don't know what to do. So I think for this week, I mean the macro goals are kind of weighing heavily on my mind.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

But for the micro goals for this week, um, I don't know, gimme some goals. I'll probably, yeah, I'll keep reading, but then outside of that, I, I need something to do because it's really hard to get outta bed to convince myself to get out of bed just to read. So gimme a goal.

Kelton:

Um, you're, are you sure? Are you sure you want me to give you a goal right now? You

Krisserin:

You can give me any goal except for

Kelton:

I

Krisserin:

telling me to write a.

Kelton:

Yes. I mean, why not write a rough draft of a query letter? You're not gonna send it to anybody, but I wanna, I mean, even write to me. I'll change it. I'll change it. Write me an email. Tell me why I should read your book.

Krisserin:

Okay.

Kelton:

Okay. And we'll, we will massage that eventually, but like right now, just convince me who does not read your genre. You know, why should I read your book?

Krisserin:

I could just forward you what my alpha reader had AI spit out

Kelton:

Nope. I don't

Krisserin:

recommendation

Kelton:

work on me. Convince me to read your book. That's right.

Krisserin:

Okay. All right. That's, that's easy enough.

Kelton:

Okay.

Krisserin:

That's easy enough.

Kelton:

goal is to read your feedback and to think about it. Uh. And I'm, I'm, that's it. You know, I'm not gonna make a bigger goal. I'm sorry. To the listeners, I feel like I am letting you down and that I'm not like, cranking away on this. And I feel like sweat pooling on my brow that I'm supposed to finish the draft of this by the end of this summer. Ben, with his construction job got offered to stay on through August. Um, but that. But that means I'm like full-time caretaking and doing my client work at night. And that's great for us to like rebuild the coffers, but it's really, really challenging for creative pursuits. And so we're just having a lot of discussions about how do we manage that? Because Ben really wants me to write this novel and he hates the idea of me taking on some of the tech influenced client work that is coming my way.'Cause he's like, that's not the life you wanna live. And I was like, yeah, I agree, but like there's, there are elements of the life I wanna live that require money. So we gotta figure that out in our house. So I'm gonna read your feedback and I'm gonna think about it and how I incorporate it. But for now I'm gonna, I'm gonna go light on the goals.

Krisserin:

Yeah. Well, to be fair, I, the, the feedback that I gave was wasn't, I know that there's sections missing and stuff, but I was basically like, these are the things that I'm excited about. These are the things that I feel like I'm gonna learn that I'm, I'm thinking about. But ultimately I think that what you have, where you've started from, is very strong. So I don't have any fear that this is a story that's gonna dissipate into the ether that you're not gonna pick up again because the characterization is so well done that I know that Bren's just sit in the back of your head mean, you know, whispering to you when you're doing these other things. But we had, a listener share, in her own substack a story about us and also about, taking a break from writing and how it's okay to not be writing all the time. So I feel like real life gets in the way. That's just how it is. And you shouldn't be hard on yourself, and I'm sure people understand.

Kelton:

I wanna shout her out. I wanna get the name of her Substack right. Abby Wolf, and she writes sounds about write. I was like, yeah, I love a pun girl. But I've been enjoying her substack. So if you're into writing, shout out Abby Wolf. Sounds about Write. And obviously write is spelled like writing.

Krisserin:

We will link to it in the show notes, but everyone should go hop over to Abby Wolf, Substack and check it out. And also, you know, if you're not already subscribed to Kelton Substack, you should go do that

Kelton:

Oh yeah. Shangri logs.substack.com. You not reading that? Come on, get on the bandwagon.

Krisserin:

on. My mom's a subscriber. Let's go.

Kelton:

All right, friends. Happy writing. And where can the people send us an email?

Krisserin:

You can email us at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com. You can follow us at pen pals pod on Tic-tac tic-tac TikTok. You can follow us at, see you on the, the tickety talkie. On TikTok or Instagram and also on YouTube. If that is something that you're interested, we have our full length episodes on YouTube that you can watch. So thanks everyone so much for tuning in, and we'll see you next week. Happy writing.

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Kelton Wright

Co-host
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Krisserin Canary

Co-host