Pen Pals

How to Get a Literary Agent (Kind Of, Maybe)

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Krisserin and Kelton dive into the often soul-crushing world of querying literary agents, where finding representation feels like a high-stakes marriage proposal to strangers who might never write back. While Krisserin reflects on her 70-query journey that yielded more silence than success, Kelton discovers that her friend's surprise pitch to an agent might offer a shortcut she's not sure she wants to take. The duo unpacks the brutal mathematics of modern querying—where 44 queries is just the average—and debates whether Kelton should pivot from her novel-in-progress to the essay collection that's been hiding in plain sight across 160+ newsletter issues.

Between tales of agents with closed inboxes, the networking advantages of MFA programs, and the particular challenge of writing query letters that somehow capture your book's essence in marketing speak, they explore the tension between authentic connection and mass-market approach. Krisserin shares wisdom from her AWP conference panel while wrestling with whether to circle back to contacts from her first querying round, and Kelton contemplates the difference between luck and strategy in a publishing world that often feels rigged toward the privileged. Plus: Woods turns one, Apple Notes fails spectacularly at transcription, and the friends assign goals that might just change everything about their approach to the writing life.

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton:

Hi. Hi, Krisserin.

Krisserin:

Hello. Hi, Kelton.

Kelton:

How are you,

Krisserin:

I'm so glad that this week is over, or almost over. I just feel like these last days of school are a, a death rattle. It is just so much to do and, I'm tired and I started my period. I know we love to share that, but I literally slept two and a half hours in the middle of the day on Wednesday. I've just been exhausted, Oh gosh. Cycle synced from thousands of miles away.

Kelton:

It's only like 800 miles. Okay. The moon can find us.

Speaker:

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton:

I'm sorry it was such a hard week.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

this week. I had a lot

Krisserin:

So,

Kelton:

went nowhere, you know,

Krisserin:

uh

Kelton:

but, uh, it's, it's almost warm here. Every

Krisserin:

oh.

Kelton:

the fifties. Like, none of the leaves are out here yet, but down valley, the leaves are out. So it's starting to really feel like the season is upon us. am excited.

Krisserin:

Ready to get outside the one reprieve. That's incredible. I love It's the aspens you're talking about, right? The, the dancing leaves. I love that.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

Yeah. You know, I don't know if I'm getting older or if I just drank too much in my, like 38 years before I quit drinking, but I just feel like I, my brain isn't working the way that it used to. And I literally woke up this morning and I was like, oh, I feel rested. And I didn't wear my watch last night, so I don't know how much sleep I got. And I was like, when did I go to sleep? Did I go to sleep early? Did I go to sleep late? Like, I can't even remember the smallest details of my life. I'm like, am I, is something happening to my brain? Should I be concerned? Do I need more adaptogens? Do I need to take more functional mushrooms or something? I don't know. Well, it sounds like we both had exciting weeks. How did your, why are you laughing?

Kelton:

So we both had such exciting weeks. We both got our periods and barely survived. What excitement we had.

Krisserin:

Man, you know? Yeah. It's crazy. I was thinking about it and it's like this, this thing, it just, it feels like it's always here. I'm like, didn't this just happen time's an illusion? Maybe the, maybe that's why women were revered because we were the only thing that could actually like mark the passage of time in a way that was tangible.

Kelton:

I like this.

Krisserin:

I dunno.

Kelton:

next novel as like women as calendars.

Krisserin:

I, I have a, I have a theory, but we won't get into it now. Um, I did see that you got out and about with Woods and in your newsletter you talked about how actually this vocalizing your book has been working. So has it been working? Talk to me about it.

Kelton:

Yeah, I, so, uh, my goal last week was to continue narrating scenes into my phone while hiking with the child. And I did do that and it, I, one thing I've had to let go of, is it being good, you know, like it's narrating is so different from. Writing it, you know, when you're writing it, there's so much live editing happening. It's so much like moving sentences around, changing how you phrase it. Thinking, thinking it through on the page and narrating out loud. If I pause for too long, the microphone stops and then I have to be like, no, I'm still talking. Um, and the narration into the Apple Notes app and I am open to suggestions on this. The narration into the Apple Notes app is so bad. It is so bad. And I know there's gotta be better software out there. but I need it to not need the internet or data like I am in the deep wilderness. It needs to just work on my phone. So if you have a suggestion, sorry, there's cat hair all over my face. I am open to it.'cause what I have not done yet and I'm sort of dreading is. Moving these scenes from the Notes app into Scrivener and editing them. And, but I can see, I can see that it doesn't even know the name of my character. It switches between calling her friend and Brent. I'm like, all right. I know, I know. Whenever it says that, that's Brent's name. But that part is tricky, but I, it has been really fruitful to keep momentum and to be thinking through what happens next and what happens next. And maybe, once I do actually go into fixing it, it'll, it'll just be like the editing stage, like it would've been anyways. So I'm really grateful that I've been doing that. And for your prompting of it,'cause Yeah, it's, it's keeping me, it's keeping me going. But I will say, gosh, my, I. Progress has been really slow. Everybody knows that. Everybody that's been listening and thinking about giving you a first draft by the end of the summer, I'm like, I gotta, I gotta really, I gotta make some steps. I gotta make some changes. But I still wanna hit that goal. I'm not gonna back down from it yet, but I still wanna hit it. And I have to say, one of the highlights of my week was getting your email why to read your book. I, sorry, before you talk about it, I have to talk about it

Krisserin:

Okay.

Kelton:

it was really good and it, it has the bones and some of the marrow necessary for a query letter. And so I don't, you know, I don't know why you're so afraid of the query letter other than the fact that they're just, you know, it's a challenging writing assignment, but you convinced me in your letter to me to read a book that is in a genre I don't like, not even a genre I don't care about. It's a genre I don't like. like I was like, I wanna read this book. You sold me on your characters. You sold me on what it's gonna do. So tell, tell our beloved listeners what it was like, how you did it.

Krisserin:

Well, it's so funny that you

Kelton:

AI to

Krisserin:

No, of course I would never, no, I don't use it for regenerative purposes ever.'cause like I said, I feel like I would just be cheating myself, but it's so funny that you say it's a genre that you don't even like, because as I've been reading in it, I don't know if I like it either. So I, um, I have

Kelton:

your book.

Krisserin:

the genre, not my book. Um, so literally Luster is sitting here. Since the last time you and I spoke and recorded this podcast, I did try to read Emma Cline's the Guest, and I was instantly put off by it because it's about a 22-year-old sex worker that is just kind of popping pills and I don't know what's going on in her life. So I need to find other comps I think that resonate more closely with my story. But, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about querying today, but writing a query letter is so different than what I did with you and not to admit that I am manipulative in any way, shape, or form, but I know you. And so I wrote the letter to you and you said, convince me I can, I can find the parts of my story that I think are gonna resonate with you. And that's why I wrote it in a way so that I could get you on board with reading my book by appealing to the types of characters that I, or my main character that has traits in her that I know that you would respond to. And so it was really fun writing that letter. It was very similar to the exercise that I did a couple of weeks ago where I wrote a letter to the readers, which ended up kind of being something that I said I would put in the acknowledgements. It is helping me clarify and crystallize the, the heart of the idea of the book. So all of this is like getting me into rhythm. And yes, it, it definitely can help with the query letter, but the query, query letter is such a different beast than what I wrote to you, which felt very much more human and, narrative in structure than what a query letter is, which feels like marketing lingo yucky speak, which I hate.

Kelton:

Well, we

Krisserin:

you know?

Kelton:

the listeners. I've not queried, I've not queried anything. I've barely applied to things. So this is a type of letter that I have read a bunch. I love reading other people's query letters. I love seeing success stories with query letters. But I am on the outside of this and you have actually written query letters. So for me, when I read your letter to me convincing me to read your book, in my mind it functions kind of like a cover letter where cover letter, if you have the same cover letter for every company and you drop and drag the company names, like it's not a great cover letter, putting aside the fact that no one reads cover letters, blah, blah, blah. Back in the era when they did, the more custom a cover letter was to that company, the better it would succeed. So when you're saying that you wrote that letter for me specifically, you're sort of just in my mind doing that for every agent. But you just don't know them as well as you know me, so it's harder to know what to sell them on. But since I am a novice, not even, I haven't even started, since I'm a non contender so far in the query space. Tell me your journey with querying so far.

Krisserin:

Sure. And I feel I'm happy to talk about it, but I've also not done it successfully. So, I mean, I'm happy to talk about kind of like what I've learned and what I've done. But the truth is that it is a little bit of a numbers game, right? So this is the second time that I've queried. And the first time I queried far fewer people, it was a long time ago. So the technology that exists now didn't really exist in the same forms as it did back when I first queried, and there definitely wasn't any AI back then. But Publisher's Marketplace has within it a list of all of the agents and who they represent and the structure of the deals that they have had. And so you can filter based on, okay, who has sold a book in the last year? How big were their deals? Who did they represent? What genres do they represent? And so that's really where I started my research is trying to figure out, okay, when I was querying Unforgettable, which is a new adult speculative fiction novel. Who's representing speculative fiction? Who's representing this new adult genre, ya genre, of books and who are actually making deals, right? Because there's a ton of agents on publishers marketplace that have made zero deals. And so what I did is I opened up a tab for every single one, and I read through every single one and qualified whether or not they were someone I wanted to query. And then I put them in priority order, and then I bucketed them into the, let me reach out to these people first, and then I'll do these people second. But the thing about it is a lot of them just have a query tracker form that you fill out. And so a lot of the information that you're inputting is just copy paste, here's my title, here's my genre, here's how many words there are. They'll want some sort of like writer's resume or a bio. You shove that in there, and then you get a character count, limited area to put in information about your book. Sometimes they'll have you upload an actual query letter, but a lot of them are just kind of like copy paste sections. They'll ask for comps. Some people will ask for, like, do you have any other media or playlists that support your

Kelton:

Ooh,

Krisserin:

novel?

Kelton:

they really

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

for that.

Krisserin:

I mean, I think there was like one or two that asked for something outside of the norm, you know? But they do expect you to have a reason for wanting to query them. So you do have to do your research. But when I first started querying the second book, I thought that I was gonna query the same amount of agents that I did the first time, which was around 10. And writing a personalized query letter for 10 agents is a, a lot of work. But then they have stats in query tracker that was like the average amount of queries that writers are doing are, I think it was 44. I was like, oh. So if it's that big of a numbers game, and by the way, some of these agents are asking for three pages, five pages. 10 pages. So you kind of have to ask yourself, how much effort should I put into making this query letter specialized for the agent if they're only gonna read a couple of pages? I think when it comes into play is if you have some sort of intro into an agent, and then you could say like, hi, so and so agent, you know, I'm so grateful to this person for introducing us, and I know that you've done X, Y, and Z and I really loved, w or whatever, and I think that you'd be a great fit for these reasons. And here's the information about my book and my background. Then it makes sense. But for the majority of the queries that you're submitting, it's very much like a, you know, marketing speak about your book. And so it, it's a little bit soulless.

Kelton:

yeah, from what I've heard too, um, a lot of people are querying many more than 44. Um.

Krisserin:

Oh yeah. I mean, I did 70. Yeah.

Kelton:

a mutual, acquaintance of ours did at least 75 for their book and no bites.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

but it's, yeah, it sounds, it sounds exhausting and that you really do have to like, be like, okay, I'm gonna like figure out your list and be like, I'm gonna do these five this week. gonna do these five the next week. It's tough because obviously you start with the agents that are your dream agents, and then how long, long do you wait? You know, must be that they're used to the fact that querying so many people that there's plenty of people getting emails or they're like, sorry, you know, I've decided to go in a different direction, both on the agent and the client side, but wild.

Krisserin:

You know, when I went to AWP, I did attend a panel on agents that a friend of mine was on, and they talked about getting an agent, finding an agent. And really, the thing is, at the same time, when you're doing all of this work and trying to get your book in front of all these people, who you choose as your agent is so important. It is a marriage, you know, and what I found out that was wild is that a lot of them don't even have contracts. So they'll be like, yeah, I'll represent you, but there's nothing in writing, which is like, as someone who works in, you know, business. I'm like, that's wild. I would've assumed that there would be a letter of representation with terms but there's really not. So I think that's when you get into the whole, like Tracy Wolf situation where, and the name, I forget the name of the agent that was actually a fault, kind of has left my mind. But, yeah, you can do all of that work and then hear nothing. And so it's very, you know, discouraging. But the, the frame of the query litter itself, you know, I was going back to that link that you sent me about that author who got all of the, remember she got like all of those offers of representation within like 24 hours of querying

Kelton:

Yes.

Krisserin:

that that horrible woman. But she does, she does share her query letter in that, I guess Query Tracker has some interviews about how people

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

have gotten offers. So that might be something worth taking a look at. But the frame of her query letter is different than mine. And I'm trying to remember back to where I got my, the frame of what we're supposed to write. Because the way that I did it was an introduction of myself and a little bit about the books that have inspired me and the topics and the themes that are important to me. And then two short paragraphs about the book that was really pitching the book, which are very much, a log line, an elevator pitch about it, and getting people intrigued about the idea and the concept so that they'll actually wanna read the pages that you sent them. And then one paragraph about my writer's bio where I talk about the classes that I've took, the people that I've studied with, the workshops that I've attended, my mentors, et cetera. And that's it. You know, obviously you mentioned the genre and the number of words that are in the book as well, but this woman, Faith Gladwin, her whole letter is just about the book. It's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, paragraphs that are just about the book, and it's more of a, like a mini synopsis with a bit of a teaser in it. So I find that interesting and wondering maybe that's the tack that I take next time.

Kelton:

I wonder

Krisserin:

I,

Kelton:

also genre relevant or related. If the reason that she's doing that is because she was in like a vaguely romantic,

Krisserin:

it's gothic tinged, adult speculative horror.

Kelton:

Oh, okay.

Krisserin:

How's that for a genre?

Kelton:

Um, it's funny. Um, that

Krisserin:

But that kind of sounds like your gothic tinged, adult speculative horror.

Kelton:

sound exactly like what I'm writing actually. Sort of in the vein of like, I don't like to read what I'm writing. I'm reading so much horror now because there's horror elements in my book and I hate reading it. I hate it.

Krisserin:

Oh no.

Kelton:

Oh, it's so scary. I'm like, I have to like read it like only before 11:00 AM

Krisserin:

Oh man.

Kelton:

myself all day.

Krisserin:

Yeah, I'm, I always wonder about people who like horror because I have some friends and actually my friend, Lilliam, who was the author that was on the AWP panel, her most recent novel is, is Horror. And you would probably like it'cause it's got, it's like based in the fashion industry, you should read it. And, I just, that's not my thing. I do not like being scared. I don't like horror movies. Like some people love horror movies and horror shows. I can't stomach them. Like sitting there fast forwarding through all the scary parts.

Kelton:

I totally, you know, I was thinking about agents, I was reading, somewhere on the internet this past week about someone talking about their, their mistakes they made leading up to their debut novel. And one of them was around their first agent, who they did not name, but their first agent approached them and was effusive. And was like, no edits to the book. Like, I just love it. And she was like, I should have known. and I, you know, I'm technically a published author. I published my first book with thought catalog a long time ago, and I remember when I sent in my first draft, they also were like, we love it. And that's when I was like. Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. And I didn't, I didn't have an agent, you know, they approached me just to have me write the book'cause they were doing like a new model. But as soon as they didn't give me edits on the book, I was like, this was a mistake. And that was same with that person. It's like, it's tough because you obviously want representation, but if someone comes to you and is like, I'll represent you, your writing's perfect, no edits, then you have to be like, wait, I need you to, need you to want to shape me. So it's, it's hard. I, I read, a friend of mine, many moons ago on her own newsletter was talking about. The future of her newsletter. And she was saying in passing how an agents had approached her. And she was just like, that's not what I'm interested in. And I was like, hold the phone, hold on, hold on a second. Agents have just approached you. Agents are just writing to you on Substack, being like, I wanna represent you. And like, obviously she didn't say what they said and she, she glossed over it and was like, that's not what I'm interested in. And I was like, that's what I'm interested in. Like what, what's happening over there? Who's reading your newsletter? And I had such a, a wave of jealousy. But I have to remind myself that I, I think that one of the ways I do want to go is like the traditional querying route. Like I wanna work for it in a way, in a

Krisserin:

Why?

Kelton:

in

Krisserin:

Why so, you know.

Kelton:

I was burned, you know? And it's like I feel like I made my mistake and now I'm like, now I don't trust. Now I don't trust luck basically in this genre of life.

Krisserin:

I get that. I think what I'm hearing is that you want to evaluate the agents, multiple agents and try and make a decision about what's best for you and your work and who you wanna work with. And I think that that's valid. And being in a position where you can choose amongst a couple of agents who are interested in working with you is the dream, right? That's how you would want to do any business is you would want to like send out an RFP and then review the proposals and then pick the one that makes the most sense. You know, like when you're interviewing people for a job, you want to put them through a process so you can understand who you're going to best work with. And I have heard horror stories of people who had to fire their first agents because it was not working. But to be honest, when I was listening to that panel, quite a few of them got approached by agents who said, do you have a novel? Because they had seen their work in other formats in other places. Whether they had a short story published in Sewanee Review or they were, they had a podcast and had an online presence or had a substack that happens

Kelton:

Yeah,

Krisserin:

where people get exposed to your writing and enjoy it and say, do you have a novel? And one of the women on the panel was just like, yes, I do. And she did. And she's like, just lie. I have a novel.

Kelton:

Yep, I do.

Krisserin:

I have a novel for. You sure do.

Kelton:

being done

Krisserin:

Almost here. Yeah, I'm just polishing it up a little bit. Um, so that does happen and I, I don't know, I don't know what and how that happens for some people and it doesn't for others. And to be honest, I, I was at an event last night for, Tia Williams and Kennedy Ryan, and they are two romance writers both have New York Times bestselling novels that came out. And they're our age. And I was looking at them thinking. Is that ever going to be me? You know? But you are when One thing that I was thinking about, Tia Williams, she has a YA book that came out and her daughter, who is 16, was inspiration for one of the characters in it. And so she was on Good Morning America with her daughter talking about her book. And as you were talking about narrating the book with Woods on your back, I was thinking this is what Kelton is gonna talk about when she's on Good Morning America, about how she wrote her book. She verbalized her book with her baby on the back, walking through the Colorado wilderness.

Kelton:

if I get famous from writing my book, people are gonna hate me. I'm gonna be like, oh, I was just climbing mountains with my baby on my back, narrating scenes into my phone before coming home and working my six clients and running my podcast and my newsletter. You just sneak it in when you can. I'd be like this bitch. Oh, but I

Krisserin:

I think

Kelton:

fantasy for me. I really do.

Krisserin:

I'm manifesting it for you. I can see it happening as those women on the trail said, you're just charming enough to make it happen, kelton.

Kelton:

Oh man, I this week, um. A friend of, mine who is a, a bestselling author, she told me that she forwarded my newsletter to her agent. She was like, I, you know, no promises. This isn't really their genre, but she was like, I was just really surprised to hear you don't have an agent, and that you're not like, already doing that. And so I think there is something too, you know, publicly being like, I am looking for representation. And, and like you, you mentioned something earlier about someone's, work being seen in a literary review first. And I have been thinking about that a lot where yeah, obviously it's great that I have a substack. But it's like that's a private newsletter is not like something an agent will always just happen upon whereas if you are getting published in literary reviews, in, you know, in like dream publications like the New Yorker and stuff, that is an easy way for agents to swoop you up, like classic cat person kind of story. Where you write something good enough that they're like, Hey, I, I want you. And so I just wondering recently, like if I should be dedicating like. One. So I do four free essays a month. If I shouldn't make one of those weeks not online, like I should just not put it on my newsletter and just be like, this one I'm submitting somewhere. Whichever one is the best of the month. It gets a submission first to see if it can get published to a wider audience.'cause I can always use my own work to publish it on my substack later. and you know,'cause I'm like, I, I need to start like being more out there I think. But at the same time, are you pursuing side pubs at all while you're working on your novel?

Krisserin:

in the back of my head, I always think about it, you know, and the thing is, I was just remembering that panel also, I think I. If not all of them, three out of four of them all have MFAs

Kelton:

Of course they

Krisserin:

from like Columbia, from storied and expensive programs. And the thing about literary journals is a lot of them also are feeders from MFA programs and, you know, things get sent to them from teachers in those programs. And again, it's just another walled garden that is hard to break into if you're not part of that community. So yes, I have, I have submitted to, you know, literary journals in the past and the way that my teacher, Dr. Elizabeth Sharp McKetta. It said about it is like, there is a time for writing and a time for submitting. You can like take a little bit of time apart and just like focus on that and then put that down whether things hit or not, and then go back to actually doing the work over here. It's not something that you can do all the time. It's something that you kind of have to carve out time for. And I'm not a short story writer, so it's really hard for me to find parts of work or, or pieces of work that hit the word count that people are looking to publish. Um, but you know, Kelton,

Kelton:

Mm.

Krisserin:

I just had a thought come to me. You know, I did send, I sent Kelton this, post from Alexander Chee who is an essayist and has published a book of essays. How many essays have you published on Shangri Logs?

Kelton:

160 plus.

Krisserin:

I am sure you could cobble together an essay collection that is publishable in those 160 essays. I'm sure you can.

Kelton:

I'm sure I could. But, I will say that I've thought about that.'cause I, I see some submissions for personal essays pop up every once in a while for literary places. And when I go back and read some of these essays, they just require to me so much editing. There is, which I just, when when am I gonna do that? And like all this effort for something that's not guaranteed that I'm trying to pitch, shove into this. This bracket that they've set up. You know, it's not like I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm just sending around my eight favorite essays I've ever written. It's always, they always need to be molded into what that, that submission needs. And I did that once, and took a bunch of time and they both got rejected. And I was like, this is, you know, I'm trying to look at what is making me money and what is building my brand. And it's tough, but like having to deliver twice a week a, a grueling writing deadline. And being able to carve something out from that to submit elsewhere is really challenging. And I've carved as much time as I can to just write the novel. We have one more episode before this season wraps, and I am thinking about, okay, that means that you still get Friday mornings summer or another morning. You know, Ben and I will look at the schedule once we complete this and, and think about how we're allocating our days to make sure we're both getting our work done. But, you know, it's, it's tough. Am I pursuing the book? Am I pursuing my name? Am I pursuing clout? And you can't do all of them well. And so like in the back of your mind, you gotta be like, I'm hoping that luck will just show up at the party and spill her coffee all over me. So.

Krisserin:

I don't know how essay collections work necessarily, but I feel with no evidence whatsoever that they probably work a lot more along the lines of nonfiction where you don't have to write the whole thing. You can just write a proposal and a pitch. And because you do have so many, essays written and a subscriber base. I bet you could write some pitches to agents for an essay collection. And then once you secured one, work with them on picking the best ones and editing them. You just have to have a, a theme or an angle that brings all of the essays under an umbrella. That makes sense. But I feel like this is, there's something here for you and I know without having to do all that editing that you were talking about upfront.

Kelton:

It's interesting you say that.'cause that friend who sent my substack to their agent, this is what she said, she was like, why, why are you, she's like, good for you that you wanna write a novel. She's like, but you already have everything for a book. And she's like,

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

write more of the stuff that you obviously love to write. And people would read it. And I think in the back of my mind, I'm a little burned from, when that first book was published, anonymous asked with thought catalog, it had some new stuff, but it was mainly edited old stuff. And when readers read it, a lot of them were like, eh, I read it before. I wanted it to be all new. And so I think about that with this audience that I have. It's like, I think I would have to write all new stuff, which is fine. But I, I'm talking to that friend next week about like, what a memoir proposal looks like. Because you're right. I, I would have to have like a theme, you know, that's one of the beauties of like h is for Hawk is that there's this through line, pulling you through the essays.

Krisserin:

Yeah, I do feel like there is a theme within you. I feel like there is a essay collection book proposal that's just on the outskirts of your mind that you haven't seen yet. I'm not one to ever discourage someone from working on a novel, but if the immediate goal is figuring out a way to make money from your writing, to continue to work and build your audience, you have this incredible resource of essays that you have written. And maybe working on the novel is the hardest way to get you to where you wanna be in the immediate term. Not to say that you abandon it, but are you making it harder for yourself than it needs to be?

Kelton:

It is so interesting you say that because I was having a conversation with Ben this week where we were talking about our future careers and our, our paths in life, and he was like, don't you just wanna be a novelist? And I was like, no. It. I was like, it's easily one of the hardest things I've ever done. I have to make myself do it. I'm enjoying it. I love the story. I'm excited for it to be a final story that I can share, whether that's in the Big Five or just on my, my newsletter. But I was like, that is not my, my goal in life is to be a fiction novelist, squirreling away at home, panicking about plot points. I was like, I have so many other ways I wanna bring my work to life, and I feel like one of the most important ways for me is the way I'm already doing it. so it's, it's just, uh, it is, serendipitous, that you are mentioning this the same week, someone else's to me. As I think about, you know, what do I wanna be doing? How do I wanna be bringing it to life?

Krisserin:

I understand it feeling daunting when you asked me if I have plans to send things out to literary journals. I was like, sure. Theoretically, yes. I loved theater, and I took classes in theater at UCLA, but the rejection would kill me. Like that is why I never pursued acting, is it's just I am a soft skinned little baby. So, you know, even going through the querying process is just, oh, I got my rejection from Breadloaf, by the way. I had to like search for it in my inbox. I was like, I should have heard from Breadloaf by now. And there it was, which I knew was gonna happen because I totally half-assed that application. I should have known better, but, I know it's fine, but. Yeah, it's the rejection and the waiting is hard. And then on the other end, you know, I have a lot of empathy for agents because they get so many inbounds from people that probably are, yeah.

Kelton:

books are in the slush pile every year, which is crazy.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

imagine like the best agents. You know, when you're, you flip to the back of like a, a book that you've loved, you're like, oh, I'll, I'll query whoever was the agent for lessons in chemistry or for remarkably bright creatures

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

for ACOTAR. And

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

You imagine their inboxes right now?

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

I don't know who the Sarah j Maas agent is, but I can sh Can you imagine the level of dreck in her inbox? I'm

Krisserin:

Well,

Kelton:

a

Krisserin:

she's closed. She's definitely closed to querying. I'm sure. That's the other thing is like you can do all this work and create a list and then, have people that you wanna query and they'll be closed. They'll be like, I am not accepting any more queries from now until the end of the year.

Kelton:

started

Krisserin:

You know?

Kelton:

this week. I started just thinking about who agents would be. Just, just'cause I like, I don't know anything about it and I don't wanna. I don't wanna get to finish and be like, noob in even researching it. And the first person I looked up, her inbox was closed

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

interesting.

Krisserin:

Some of them open up, but yeah, you have to pay attention.

Kelton:

And it just made, it made me think about, you know, the people I know who are, the authors I know who are successful are all mainly, memoir nonfiction. And it, you know, obviously I'm gonna reach out to everyone I know who's a success in the publishing industry as soon as I have something to sell. But it's, it's interesting reaching out to someone to be like, Hey, does your agent know any fiction agents? So it's like, it's true. Maybe I should be looking at the bulk of work that I already have, but, oh, it's hard out there. Are

Krisserin:

Yeah,

Kelton:

agents, that you haven't. Well, you must have a, a really different list for this current project versus unforgettable.

Krisserin:

I don't have a list at all for this current project. I haven't even thought about it yet.

Kelton:

Oh, that's sort of amazing.

Krisserin:

Yeah,

Kelton:

a fresh,

Krisserin:

I,

Kelton:

a fresh start.

Krisserin:

I. Yeah, it is a fresh start. the sad thing is that I've burnt all of my, I, I don't know if I can go out to the people that I've already gone out to, to ask for help this time.

Kelton:

Why, how did you burn it? You know, like you asked and

Krisserin:

because it's the second time. It's the second time. I mean, you know, I have, former bosses from Harper Collins that I feel like if I were like, Hey, I have another new book. Like, do you know this agent and do you mind introducing me? You know, I'm, I'm happy to kind of like, try again. It takes a lot.

Kelton:

yeah.

Krisserin:

I'm not, I'm not a person that does that that often, you know, which is silly because the people who do ask for help and don't care, maybe they're annoying to some people, but they get what they want. You have to ask for what you want to get what you want. And so I need to be a little bit shameless, I guess,

Kelton:

yeah. I,

Krisserin:

in my pursuit of this project,

Kelton:

I think that's true. And it sucks, you know, I also hate doing that it feels so embarrassing, especially when you don't have, for me, at least I can say that when I don't have anything I feel like I can offer in return, you know, there, like even right now I'm working on a piece for The Guardian and I'm, I'm reaching out to sources to, to get quotes about things and there's this huge parts of me that wants to be like, for your time, I'll give you a$50 Visa gift certificate. You know, just because I'm like, I'm so sorry to bother you, though, you know, I'm reaching out to people about things they're super passionate about. And you know, in theory, a lot of people want to be, wanna be quoted in the Guardian. So, but I, I feel you, I, I feel bad asking for people's time.

Krisserin:

Yeah. And to be fair, that is just, well, I don't wanna say to be fair, but here's the thing. I actually don't think people are, are that annoyed when you ask for help? Sometimes. Sometimes. Maybe.

Kelton:

when people ask me for help, oh my God. I want to help. I want to help. I love, well, I guess, you know what, I should caveat this. Here is a way I don't like to be asked for help. Okay. I had made a, a new friend once upon a time. Reached out to me because they came upon some of my writing and were like, we live in a similar area. I, we share similar interests. I'd love to be friends. tried to be friends. And it just didn't, it didn't work. We didn't click, Godspeed to both of us, Mary, on our way, don't talk for a year. And then this person reaches out to me and she's like, Hey, how are you? Oh my God, your life looks so good right now. What are you up to? And I told her in like a reply text one, and she was like, that's so great. By the way, I opened a new business and I'd love if you promoted it on your Instagram. And I was like, oh, absolutely not. And the thing is, if she had been, if she had just been honest, if she had texted me and been like, Hey, I know it's been a really long time and we haven't spoken in forever. I'm working on a new business and you feel like a person who knows a lot about how to start something new, I'd love to talk to you about it. And if you're open to it, I would give you a piece and maybe you could share it on your Instagram. That message to me is so different than the false. Bullshit of being like, how are you babe? Miss you. By the way, will you do this thing for me for free? I'm like, absolutely I won't. So I think for me, the key when I'm asking someone for help is being like, honest about what I'm coming with and what I have in return, which might be nothing. So when I do ask for help, you know, I sometimes I do say, I'm like, I'm, I wish there was something I could do for you in return, so please let me know if there's anything you can think of. But you know, when people do ask with authenticity and kindness and genuineness, and I, I wanna help.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

wanna help.

Krisserin:

Yeah. And you know, I guess the, the time I've had people ask me for help recently and then ask for help again, and sometimes it does feel a little transactional.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

and that doesn't feel great. You're kinda like, okay, yeah, I just helped you. But Sure. I think what I was thinking about and what's holding me back from wanting to ask again is probably insecurity about.

Kelton:

Mm.

Krisserin:

Is this, you know, are they like, do they think I'm good enough to be asking for these things? Or am I confident enough in my project that I feel like it's worthwhile having them reach out to their contact on my behalf? I think that if you are really confident in your project and what you've written and the work that you've done, then you should feel confident about asking for help. Because the thing is that you are asking someone to almost vouch for you, right? And so you have to have, that person has to believe that you like the work that you're doing is good and has gone through multiple rounds of edits and revisions and is ready for them to put in front. Because you know, if I ask my old bosses at Harper Collins like, Hey, can you connect me with this agent at WME and. They take a look at it and they're like, why are you recommending this crap to me? They're not gonna damage their relationship. You know? So I think doing the work in advance and not querying too early. I think that that's the one thing that I've heard from lots of people is unfortunately, your work has to be ready. It has to be at the level of like,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

good as you can possibly get it without any additional help before you put it out there into the wild. It has to be beyond reproach, you know?

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

because you wanna put your best foot forward and why would you want to spend your, your capital of your first impression with this agent? With messy, sloppy half put together work, right?

Kelton:

Yeah, and I get the impulse to go fast. You know, it's like that fucking tech nonsense of like move fast and break shit. It's like that doesn't work here.

Krisserin:

Yeah, I mean maybe for some people it does, like some people like life is always, like, this day is always sunny and luck's always on their side and they can just smile at an agent and get a deal. I don't know, but I just, it's not, that's she ain't me me. So, I don't know. This episode about querying is the one that I didn't wanna have. You know? You don't want to talk about ai, I didn't wanna talk about querying because it's been like almost traumatic to go through. It's a lot of work for nothing. To your point, you said, you know, you put all this effort into something and nothing comes of it and you're like, well, I just like wasted my time.

Kelton:

Yeah. And

Krisserin:

Um.

Kelton:

the people who, there's people I've followed over the years on various platforms who will post every rejection, and they'll celebrate it as like, they're like, you know, building blocks of a career, trying to reframe how they're feeling about it. But you can, you can still feel it. You're like, man, that sucks, man. Another one. Oh boy, that's another

Krisserin:

Yeah,

Kelton:

And that's brutal.

Krisserin:

I guess what softens the blow a little bit is that a lot of them are just forms. They're just like,

Kelton:

yeah. Yeah.

Krisserin:

name here. Unfortunately, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, yeah, but you know, my, um, my teacher, Mark Sarvas, he always says that it's not a rejection unless they read the entire thing and say no, but getting them to read the whole thing. I told you I had three agents request the full manuscript and only one of them actually. Sent me anything back. And her rejection was, we talked about this,

Kelton:

yeah,

Krisserin:

it's good, but I don't think that I have bandwidth to represent you. Thanks.

Kelton:

I mean it's tricky. Yeah. Well, I haven't started my process of agent looking. No agents have ever spoken to me. I don't have one if you're an agent, but maybe it's time for me to, think about my memoir proposal. I should read a few. read some books and essays. It's.

Krisserin:

Well, when you eventually look for an agent, finding one that represents both memoir and fiction, I don't know if there are a lot of people who do that, but maybe there are a few so that you could find someone that could represent all of your projects.

Kelton:

yeah, and I have read stories of people who had changed agents amicably or had agents that represented different parts of their work. So I, you know, I don't wanna scare myself off or of other people listening that it can't, like, you can't change, you can't evolve, you can't meet new people. Your agent can't find a new calling in life. You know, there

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

of, of things going right when it seems like they could have gone wrong. But, we're gonna have to have an agent on next season.

Krisserin:

Definitely. Plan for season two is to have some guests. I think we wanted to flush out season one and just feel out what kind of format worked for us. But I have a list of people that I think we should talk to for the next season. Yeah, it'll be fun to have some people join. Join the pen pals. Pod, pod of people.

Kelton:

All right. Are we ready to talk goals for next week? I,

Krisserin:

Sure.

Kelton:

oh gosh.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

Goals. How are your Alpha readers doing?

Krisserin:

Yeah. So my mom finished reading my book of course. We were talking about it in the car, and she has, it's fun to, it's so fun to hear people talk about your characters to you.

Kelton:

yeah.

Krisserin:

she has some things that she had feedback on, which is great. She's going to compile all of her notes and send them to me next week. And then in an hour, I'm gonna talk to my other Alpha reader and go through all the feedback that she had for me. She sent me written notes, but we're gonna just talk through it a bit. So that will be fun. I'm just waiting on one more. I have an understanding of the things that I want to work out for this next round of revision.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

I, you know, we're gonna talk next week about summer plans, but I feel like, I kind of know, I'm starting to feel like I know what I'm gonna be working on next. I completely failed to wake up early this week whatsoever, so I think that unless I have work to do writing to do, it's really hard for me to get out of bed

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

despite every effort. I mean, my alarm went off at 5, 5 36, 6 30, like every single day trying to get up. Um, so I, I hurt myself in that way. I could have just slept in. I think that for this next week, for me, it's really about getting all of those notes and figuring out what I'm going to be doing for the summer. But I do think next week one thing that we could talk about is endings. Because they're not easy and we're gonna have the end of the season. So it'll be kind of like something we can use to tie a bow on season one. But that is an area that I'm gonna have to work on for sure. How about you? What are your plans for the next week?

Kelton:

What are my plans for the next week? This week is W3's first birthday.

Krisserin:

Yay.

Kelton:

You know, it's, it's hard looking at that date because that was sort of the initial goal. I'd set my, for myself for a first draft. And so seeing that come and go is it's both deflating and motivating. I still, you know, one thing I'm grateful for is as I approach that day, I still feel like this novel has the legs that I need it to. It doesn't feel like, oh, it's just another idea. I can let go. It does feel like it's something I'm thinking about all the time and processing constantly and living with my characters. And so I'm, I'm happy about that. And I think that this week I should, you know, what I should do is I should just put those scenes that are in my phone notes into Scrivener. I just kinda wanna get them in and over and like in line with where they belong in the book. And so that I can see the word count change. I just wanna see it go up a little.'cause as I've been things around, it's, it feels like it has gone more down, that it has gone up as I take things that don't make sense out. And so now I, I wanna see it go up a little. So I'm gonna move those over. I'm gonna think a little bit about what other services I can use to be, narrating on the trail without data or reception so that it's easier in the future.'cause I, this is gonna be a lot of editing and that I'm just like not looking forward to doing. So my goals are move those scenes over fully, edit them, find a new service to do that with, and talk to Ben about what our summer schedule is like.

Krisserin:

Sounds like a plan.

Kelton:

And throw W3, a little, you know, a little birthday.

Krisserin:

How are you feeling about him turning one?

Kelton:

I don't really have any feelings about it at all. If I'm being perfectly honest. I have not felt very saccharin. I don't miss him being a newborn, everybody's just like, oh my God, you're, he's a toddler now. Like, how's it feel? And I'm like, it feels amazing. It feels amazing that he's like a real human with like personality and that he can do things on his own. I don't miss him being little at all. So if there's anything I'm struggling with, it's other people being like, oh, but you know, that's my own private problem and motherhood, so I'll deal with it on my own.

Krisserin:

I just, I have this theory that that has more to do with people's feelings around their own mortality and aging and being out of that stage of life. And, you know, I, even myself, I was watching the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and they're all getting pregnant and one of the women has, a baby. And I was like, watching the baby, like put his little head on her chest. And I was like, oh, I remember when my babies did that. And you know, you, you forget about how hard it is because there are these precious moments, but it's so hard. It is so hard. And yeah, of course, like everyone's like, I just having all of these big feelings about them turning one,

Kelton:

Yeah. And I listen, anyone who wants to come up to me and say, miss having a baby that small, by all means, tell me what you miss about your life. I love to hear it, but people who come up to me and say you will miss

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

is this small. I am. I am like one poorly medicated day away from just smashing their head into the shelf next to me. I just, nothing drives me crazier than when people tell me how I will feel, even if it's accurate. I don't, don't tell me that. Tell me your own experience, because that is what someone is talking about. They're saying what they experienced,

Krisserin:

Yeah,

Kelton:

so, so phrase it

Krisserin:

I know.

Kelton:

Say you missed it. Just lean into what you're feeling and tell me the truth. need to be an oracle.

Krisserin:

I just feel more and more every day, especially when I hear that man who is the president, speak on any platform that people have lost the meaning and sense of words and cannot communicate effectively anymore, and they just vomit out things that with no understanding of how it's going to actually be received by the other person. So I am excited for Woods to move into ages where he's a little bit more autonomous and maybe doesn't have as many tummy problems.

Kelton:

Wow.

Krisserin:

forward to that for you.

Kelton:

When that boy can finally poop, what a day it'll be.

Krisserin:

I'm sure he'll be thrilled too.

Kelton:

Alright. We got big goals for this week. So where can the people tell me about how I should be narrating my scenes without reception?

Krisserin:

Well, I have some ideas for you, but I'll share them offline if people want to reach out to us. Oh my God, I almost forgot.

Kelton:

Ah.

Krisserin:

I went to that event last night, the Tia Williams and Kennedy Ryan event, and I bought two tickets thinking that one of my friends would wanna come with me and then not asking any of them until the last second. And then they all said no. And I don't know why I was surprised. But with those two tickets came a copy of each of their new books. And so I have a copy of Tia Williams', new book, Audrey and Bash are just friends. And Kennedy Ryan's new book Can't Get Enough that I will be giving away to one of our listeners. So if you want a copy, email us at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com or DM us@penpalspod on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube or wherever, because literally I will give it to whomever reaches out and asks for it. One or both. They're excellent authors. You just gotta be first. So if you want. One of these books, send us a note and I will mail it to you.

Kelton:

What an amazing giveaway. Alright, on that uplifting note, email us, dm us, et cetera, and happy writing.

Krisserin:

Have a great week. Happy writing.

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Kelton Wright

Co-host
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Krisserin Canary

Co-host