Pen Pals

Finding Your Voice (And Other Terrifying Feedback)

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 2 • Episode 3

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Kelton's exhausted from weeks of sleepless nights with a teething toddler, and Krisserin is deep in revision mode—235 pages edited and counting. But the real topic of this episode is one every writer dreads: major editorial feedback that you don't know how to fix.

Krisserin shares her agent's note that her manuscript lacks authorial voice despite having strong character voices and excellent pacing. Is it because it's YA? Is she too afraid to inject her own beliefs into the narrative? Or is her deep-seated fear true—that she's just a good mimic without a distinct style? Kelton offers perspective: maybe the screenplay-like quality of the book means Krisserin needs to think like a director, not just a camera.

The conversation expands into the bigger question: how do you choose the right form for your story? Kelton explains why she chose memoir over research-heavy journalism (spoiler: she hates research and loves writing about herself). They discuss the practicalities of genre constraints, like Kelton's realization that her novel's main character probably needs to be 19, not in her thirties—which might make it YA whether she wants it to be or not.

Plus: manifestation walks where Kelton practices saying "the month I made $100,000," the difference between hard work and good work, why putting down projects might be the right move, and Krisserin's plan to spend her 41st birthday alone in an Airbnb reading her entire manuscript aloud.

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Krisserin:

One of these days, we're gonna have to a super cut of all of our, what's it called? Why did I wanna say blip? Too much Kid tv. All of our bloopers. All of our blip.

Kelton:

Blippies! Hi Krisserin

Krisserin:

hi. I'm tired.

Kelton:

Me too. Woods hasn't slept through the night in like three weeks now because of his canines, and it's just been brutal. I'm really starting to, starting is the wrong word. I am collapsing. I had like a real nervous system breakdown last night, not like an actual anxiety attack or a panic attack,'cause I know what those are. It just felt like my nervous system was like, I don't, I can't work anymore.

250307 - New Intro:

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Krisserin:

I was editing our first episode, and you were, talking about the travel you were going to do and how you were concerned about getting COVID on the plane, and then Woods got sick anyway, right?

Kelton:

I mean, woods got sick before the trip even started, so we had to cancel the LA portion of our trip, which is what I was most excited about. And then, it was just visiting home, which is stressful in its own way. so he's fine now. He's not sick anymore. It's just those teeth that are really, he like wakes up full of joy and I'm like, oh, good for you. I'm so happy. which, you know, and it makes our lives easier, that he's happy all day. But it is, I really do need some more sleep. And I know that this is like, I can see the teeth, I can see his teeth Krisserin, the little white nubs right under the gums, and I'm like, just break through.

Krisserin:

Well, you had I think, a pretty stressful week, but I'm curious if within all of that chaos you were able to get any writing done.

Kelton:

No, it's just some weeks you just don't get to do any writing and it was a bummer'cause I was really hoping for some spaciousness. But it, that just didn't come. so this week is real crunch time for me. You know, I really do wanna get those first three memoirs chapters locked by end of September. That is the goal. But I also am giving myself the grace that if it takes one week in October, it doesn't matter. It's good to have the goal. And I did, this morning I was like, maybe I should just look up a few agents instead of writing it. And I was like, no, no. Finish writing the chapters. The agents are the prize for doing your work. So I'm still adamantly refusing to allow myself that pleasure,

Krisserin:

You and I have such different philosophies towards like punishment and reward systems. Oh man. Do you have anyone waiting for this memoir proposal where you said like, by this date you will have this thing?

Kelton:

not by a date. There's one person who is like, yeah, I want it when she's done. But there, there is no date. The date is for me, as I have learned doing this podcast with you, if there is not like a ticking, countdown for me, I'm not gonna do it. And so treating this as a real deadline has been really, really helpful. And I am almost there. It's just, you know, we've talked about this so many times on so many episodes where you want, when you send it to an agent, you want it to be dialed. And I know that memoir proposal is a little different than fiction, but it's still like those first three chapters have to make them want to make that book. So I, I'm trying to make sure that they, they feel like me, that they capture the essence of the book, that they propel it forward. And that is, it's hard when you are, actively doing too many other things.

Krisserin:

It is true. It's true. And last week, you know, knowing a little bit about what was happening with you last week, I, I don't think you can fault yourself for not being able to sit down and get the work done, but I wonder. Because with me, knowing that I have to have stuff done by December 1st night and someone's waiting and I have a drop dead date, it's really been motivating for me. Not that you lack motivation, you lack, time and the space to do things, but I wonder if having someone waiting on it and saying like it's gonna be in your inbox on this day then grants you the permission not only to yourself, but even with like Ben, like, dude, I've got, I have to do this. I have to turn it in. Just to make sure that it gets done in time that you feel good about, you know, I know it's hard, it's a hard thing to like propose and it and impose on yourself and on your family, but I don't know how

Kelton:

What if that inbox is your inbox?

Krisserin:

well I was gonna suggest that. I was gonna suggest, if you want me to read the first three chapters, I'd be happy to, if you want to have them in my inbox by October 11th or 12th.

Kelton:

easy, easy. I'm like, oh, that's like 11 plus some days easy. I don't know what day this episode comes out, but I'm, I'm shooting myself in the foot now

Krisserin:

Today's September.

Kelton:

in the other foot later.

Krisserin:

Today is September 25th, so you would have effectively like three weeks, no less than three weeks. Math. Math, two and a half weeks.

Kelton:

yeah, I mean, my plan is still to have it done. I want, I wanna have it done by October 5th is kind of what I'm

Krisserin:

Okay.

Kelton:

for. I think that's doable and I would love to send it to you. I would love to send it to you and have you just be like the'cause I have sent the proposal around before you read that and, another creative friend of mine read it and yeah, I need, I need more critical eyes on it.

Krisserin:

it would be, my honor, I would love to look at it. The only reason I said the 11th and 12th is because I'm gonna be in Arizona for like a whole week, so it'll be the first time I can actually sit down and look at it, but

Kelton:

great. Well, I'll wait till then, then.

Krisserin:

Give yourself permission to take another week. I am really excited to read it. I enjoyed the proposal and I think sometimes just saying like, I have to turn this in by a certain date is really helpful. And I've had other friends who've asked me to be their accountability buddies saying like, I'm gonna send it to you, and I just start harassing them. I'm like, Hey, I'm, where is it? I'm waiting. And then they're like, oh, crap. I'll have it by this day. And by that day, if it's not in my inbox, I'm like, Hey, where is it? I'm waiting.

Kelton:

This will come out after my class has already started, but once the class starts, then it, it kind of unlocks a lot of mental bandwidth for me. I'm still gonna have to be working on elements of it, but it's like, it'll be full, it'll be moving and I won't have this, this weight of like, you're launching this new thing in your life and it needs to be perfect. It'll just be going I will be able to focus on other things and stop telling my newsletter subscribers to take a class.

Krisserin:

By the way, my mom read your most recent essay on Autumn and very much enjoyed it. She said it really helped her. She didn't like how you attacked the church. But then I told her, I'm like, you don't like the church either. She's like, that's, that's true. She's at Bible study right now, but

Kelton:

funny.

Krisserin:

she really enjoyed your essay. And she's like, that Kelton really has a way with words. She really does.

Kelton:

I love her.

Krisserin:

But how are you feeling otherwise? I know there's just a lot, there's a lot going on in your life and I feel the same way. But you know, you got a baby who's teething in the class and this, and you just had a stressful week at home and are you okay?

Kelton:

I mean, this year in like June, one of my semi recurrent clients was like, we have a brief coming in for you. Are you available? And I was like, yeah. And then in July they emailed again and were like, we're still working on that brief. And I was like, just let me know when you have it. And they emailed this morning to be like, here's the brief. was like, this week, this is the week you're emailing me. I can't do it this week. you know what I said? I just said yes. I was like, okay. Whatever cares.

Krisserin:

thing to add to the pile. Yeah.

Kelton:

fine. I'm like, I'm really, my eyes are on November to just not do anything. I am feeling, um, I am feeling worn thin. but I do feel like I have a, like an a target, so you just gotta ride it. You gotta ride the wave.

Krisserin:

Just and not drown. Are you gonna be okay? I'm worried about you.

Kelton:

yeah. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be fine.

Krisserin:

Okay. Okay. I'll take you at your word, but I dunno if I believe you a hundred percent.

Kelton:

Yeah, me either. How are you?

Krisserin:

How am I? Yeah, I'm good. I'm tired. I've been getting up at five. I don't know what's going on with my body. I like woke up. I woke up at two, I woke up at four, and then finally at like 4 45, I was like, I'm not gonna be able to go back to sleep. So I got up and um, Boyan is traveling this week, so I'm fer, you know, I keep saying ferreting, that's not the word, but chauffeuring the children to and from school and doing all of that stuff. Today's crazy. I'm talking to you, I got work, then I'm gonna volunteer at the school. And then I have a meeting with my daughter's teacher, and then she's got dance and then I'm gonna die. I'm just gonna crawl into bed and go to sleep again. I'm also stretched very thin, but overall I am doing the work. I have edited. 235 of the 330 pages of my book,

Kelton:

Holy

Krisserin:

just doing line edits, just like going through and like cutting stuff that is not propelling the story forward, doing the line edits that Kima my agent, put into the document, and checking for grammar and continuity and little things like so and so got up and sat in front of their desk and then all of a sudden he's behind the desk again. It's like little things like that that I'm catching on this go around. I'm trying to get through the whole manuscript of those like light edits before going back and doing a further edit. One of the notes that Kima gave me was that there isn't a clear voice in the book. Which I'm like, Hmm. She's like, is it because it's like a ya novel or whatever? So I'm gonna think about what that means.

Kelton:

a big Holy,

Krisserin:

yeah. like,

Kelton:

know. I

Krisserin:

I don't know. I don't know either. And I was, I, funny enough, I was listening to the V.E. Schwab's podcast, which is I, the last episode is actually her and her friend, her and her producer, which I felt very pen pals esque. And she talked about how one of her first books got to the like final stages with a publishing house four times. Until each and every one of them realized that the book didn't have a plot, but the voice was so good that everyone wanted to buy it, they just couldn't get it over the finish line. And I'm like, is my book does it have the opposite problem? Where it's like the plot and the pacing is good, but there's just no voice like

Kelton:

That's so funny.

Krisserin:

Yeah. So I'm trying to think about that because I feel like my Gustafson novel, the voice is really clear and distinct. It's also written in first person. This book is written in close third. So, it could just be that I am struggling with how to have a voice as a narrator of that story while still trying to have a close third POV that is telling the reader how the main character is thinking and feeling and operating in the world. Because, I don't see the narrator as a, as like a, a distinct storyteller in the book. I always have this problem with third person novels where it's like, who's telling the story? You know? Um, is it, is it me? I guess it's me,

Kelton:

I, I With my fiction book. Yeah. It's like it's written in the third person, but I do think there is a reveal at the end of who the third person is. And it complicates things, obviously, but that, that's really, that's really challenging. I can see in the fiction piece I'm working on where my voice is not my voice, but the voice of the narrator is really strong and that I keep coming back to those sections when I'm like lost on how to write.'cause I want it to sound like that.'cause I like, love that narrator. Um, but just to have this overarching feedback of like, no voice here. I mean, it makes me think because you're, that book that I read of yours really feels like a screenplay in a lot of ways. Like it is such a movie, like very easily cast, very easily set and seen. And I think you could convert it to a screenplay quite quickly. And I, I wonder if that relates at all to the, the voice. Like

Krisserin:

Think it's a little bit more like of a camera than a narrator.

Kelton:

like you think you have to start thinking like you're the director, where it's like you have all this amazing source material, but like, what is the lens that the director would shoot it through? that's hard.

Krisserin:

So this is what she said. I'll just read it to you. Um, she says, where I'm also struggling, but is not knowing your authorial voice even after all of these pages together. Well, I don't feel that I know your voice is an author. I do know the voices of your characters. And as I said in consultation, that could be because the book is YA so some of your voice is muted, but I should still have a sense of your style. I don't feel like I know your style as well as I'd like to know it, but again, I do know these characters' voices.

Kelton:

I mean,

Krisserin:

I don't know what my,

Kelton:

times that you wrote this book in a flash,

Krisserin:

yeah, I did.

Kelton:

poured out of you. And so I think that that probably resulted in a, like wasn't a lot of room for flourish because you had to get the story out of you so quickly. So, I know you're cutting a lot of things, but maybe you need to add some things.

Krisserin:

I hope not. It's already like, it's already like 99,000 words I don't wanna add anymore. It's hard to know. I feel like my style as a writer, we've talked about this a little bit, is I like to zoom in on things and it's the things that I draw your eye to that are a little bit unnoted. Like you wouldn't typically like you in your class. It's like looking up and taking in the world around you. That's kind of how I like to write. And I do that in this book, but again, it does move so fast that we might move through those scenes a lot. And I do feel like the things that I'm resting on and the places where I'm trying to point the camera in a direction and say, look at this. Sometimes they, because the book has these really big themes around. Money and class and technology. I just don't want it to come off as preachy. I don't wanna inject my beliefs or my POV into the narrative. Instead, I want what happens, the action of the novel to tell the story of, and make the point that I'm trying to make. So, I don't know, I'm gonna have to read some essays on voice or something.'cause I just, this is a problem. I dunno how to solve. And so my plan is to print out the book and actually spend like an entire day just reading, reading it and seeing where, where there's opportunity or, or like what's missing or if it's, there's something missing. I just don't, I don't know. I don't know how to fix, I don't know how to solve this problem.

Kelton:

What if exactly what you just said is the solution? Like what if layering those beliefs in to your narrator is what gives you more of a voice? Like I don't listen, I don't think it's preachy. If you're right. So, I mean, your book is basically like, don't be an asshole. don't sell your soul. It's like very simple principles. I think you could be like, know, take care of people. Like the, the views that you don't wanna put in are not as harsh as I think you think they are. They're like basic universal kindnesses and like, an an acknowledgement of the class systems that have held people down for millennia. Like, anyone who reads this book, who wants to pick this book up is gonna agree. So what if your narrator had those beliefs? Now I say that saying that you should talk to Kima about it. Talk to your agent your a because like she might, that's gonna help because know. Before you print the whole book and read it for the 46th time, just ask her if this thing you've been consciously avoiding might be the solution.

Krisserin:

Yeah. I, I don't know. I have to think about it. I mean, I will ask her for sure. I'll ask her, but I just, don't, I think I need to read some examples of books written in third person that have strong authorial voice, Or maybe, see, this just goes back to my underlying deep seated fear that maybe I'm just a good mimic and I don't have a unique authorial voice and I just like write, write story. And um, yeah, it's not distinct. Like when I sing, my singing voice has no distinct characteristic, so

Kelton:

But

Krisserin:

I'll have to.

Kelton:

have distinct characteristics. I think that proves your inner critic wrong. You can write a really clear character with big personality. You are just so afraid of letting your personality be in this fiction book that you're just like, well, I'm gonna mute that part. We're just gonna set this as like scene settings. So I don't, I don't think that is the case. You read your book to an agent and they signed you, so I'm gonna need you to like, you know, get in line here. You're good. Stop printing your book over and over.

Krisserin:

is a great segue to talk about, not me and my insecurities, but the, uh, topic of today's episode, which is, what are we calling it? Like form, like how do you choose the form in which the story that you want to write takes and

Kelton:

right.

Krisserin:

We've talked about this in the past where I like fiction because I like to hide behind character. And even, like, I had to redo my website over the weekend and just writing my bio. I was like, Ugh, I hate writing about myself. I hate it. Um, which is why I write fiction. And you made the point when we were chatting about it, how. Gustafson novel, it's based on this idea of a family curse. And I could have written a memoir or a, a story about my family and its curse, but I chose to write a fictionalized version of that. So yeah, it's, I think, a really interesting question. Why do we choose and how the form that our stories are going to take. And Kelton why, why memoir for you?

Kelton:

Well, so the, the memoir I'm working on is loosely based around an essay I wrote about what I think are the, like five key principles of finding home. And I could have gone in a really researched community focused direction with this, with interviews and looking at other or apartment buildings or cities or whatever the community size is, where people have really found those five principles. I could have gone that route. But instead I'm going a memoir route and I'm applying those five principles to my life and saying how I figured them out, how I found them, and like how they bring me joy and why I think those are the key to finding home. the answers are pretty simple about why I went that direction. I hate research and I like writing about myself, so it was like, you know. That, that kernel of an idea for someone else, for like, of someone who identifies more as a journalist than an essayist, I think very easily would've gone in a different direction. But for me, the form of writing that I love the most is obviously essay. it, it felt really natural. And that book, I think could go in either direction. Now, I also could have, I could have very easily gone in a fiction route about someone finding home, and layered in this story of like the things they resisted and what made them feel welcome. And there's certainly elements of that in the fiction piece that I'm writing in the novel. But know, for, to put that idea in fiction is way too like ham-handed, I think. And so it was like, when I'm looking at this kernel of idea of the five elements of finding home, you know, there's only so many directions to take it. And for me it was like, what do I like to do? what do I think I could do well, because I don't think I could do the research version of that book. Well, I think someone else could. I think like Anne Helen Peterson could like really crush that kind of book. Someone who loves doing interviews, who's really good at getting people to talk about their experience in a way where they, they don't feel vulnerable or put out, but they feel empowered to tell their story. And the only person I am good at interviewing that way is me.

Krisserin:

I think you're not giving yourself enough credit because your essays when you write your essays for SH logs have a lot of really incredible information about your town and the history of it in them. So obviously you do like research it, make it finds its way into your writing.

Kelton:

it does. But I'm still the core element. It's still, I think the thing about essay that's really nice is that like, you essentially can't be wrong talking about your feelings now people might disagree with your beliefs or how, or how you move through the world, but I'm not gonna be wrong about the way that something made me feel. And research, you know, you're, you really have the potential to miss huge parts of the story. You have the potential to really misrepresent people, which is like a nightmare for me. And so it's easy to just talk about myself. If I was to write a book about home and community that is, that as a research book, that would require so many layers of disclaimers. like, how could you research that for the world? You know? And like for me, I'm like, this is what made me feel at home. You know? And no one can argue that it's sa, it's safe, it's much safer.

Krisserin:

It begs the question if you're doing it because you're afraid of not being able to do the other thing perfectly.

Kelton:

No, I don't, I genuinely don't wanna do the other thing. I agree. I would not be able to do it perfectly, but I also, I, I don't find joy in that kind of writing, like when I'm writing a piece for The Guardian, the way I've written my piece is for The Guardian so far, is that I write an essay and then my editor is like, can you turn this into a piece for The Guardian? And I always say Yes, because I love my editor and I love writing for The Guardian, but it's so stressful and hard for me to convert those essays into these well-researched pieces that, that cover a, a, a great deal. More nuance than a personal essay often needs to, and, uh, know those things are satisfying challenges. But what I wanna write a book about that Absolutely not. Oh my God.

Krisserin:

The novel that you are, you have, that you're currently working on. Talk about that a little bit because how did you choose the narrator? Is it ya? Is it, what did we say? It was like American Gothic.

Kelton:

Yeah, it's a little gothic. Let's talk about the YA thing because I have reached a, a problem with the novel. One of the core elements that drives plot in the novel is that time does not function the way it is supposed to. And so ages and time periods, those things are quite malleable in this book. And while I really wanted to write a character in their thirties,'cause I'm in my thirties, the more I write this book, the more I think the main character has to be younger'cause she has to be a little stupid. And like I'm, I'm like struggling to get around that. I don't wanna write a book about a 19-year-old, but this book is kind of pushing me into the corner where I think she has to be. And like I can definitely make that work. But that is a different person than who is currently written into this book. And I am, I'm really struggling with that'cause it makes way more sense that I'm this far along for her to be younger than she is. Like I'm finding myself having to like. Explain why she doesn't know certain things in a way that I can't get to work narratively. now, but, but if she's 19, it's a ya novel. There's like almost no way around that. Like, have you ever, is it not? Well, the thing is not only is she's 19, but there's ghosts, you know, there's like elements. I just feel like someone's gonna be like, if you wanna sell this, it has to be positioned as ya.

Krisserin:

Those are two different things. What makes for a believable story and what makes sense and what sells? Gotta separate those. I similarly had the same issue with my book in that my character is like 17, going on 18 in the novel. It's important to the plot because her being a minor is a crucial element of like something that happens in the book. And then for the second book, she's four years older, four years wiser, four years through college, and is a different person. And it's important for her also to be young because she's very naive to how the world works and doesn't understand what she's taking on when she says she wants to take on this big tech company and how Ill prepared she is for it. all of that makes, it makes sense for her to be this age. Now. When I and originally wrote the book, I had it as new adult, which is a little bit of a, it's the in-between, between Y eight and adult. And that's because there's sex in the book and it was a little bit more explicit. I was reading a lot of. I was reading a lot of you can imagine what I was reading while I was writing it. So I was like, there has to be a sex scene in the book, but then I pared it back a whole lot and it makes sense and the way that it's written out is YA appropriate and additive to the story. But, I think that there is a way to write a narrator who is older that could just be naive to how the world works because of circumstances of how they were raised or where they were raised, or what they were exposed to. For my character, it had a lot to do with the fact that she like grew up in a, like socioeconomically, poor area. And so she'd never rubbed up against wealth and didn't even know what it was to interact with people who had so much power. Which can be true for anyone who gets thrust into a new world. So for your story, I think So many books are written about people at this age.'cause it's a turning point in your life. It's when you become an adult that coming of age, you know, trope. And I feel like when a character's older, the stories that we read about older women are different. They're just less adventurous. They're a little bit more, about the, the day-to-day slog unless you're in Miranda July and you decide to live in a motel in Monrovia for a month or whatever it was. But

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

yeah, it's hard.

Kelton:

State of Wonder. Oh, I love that book so much.

Krisserin:

I never read it. read it.

Kelton:

it's so good. If you've ever fantasized about like running Away to the Jungle, this is the book.

Krisserin:

Well, and it is like, I feel like these narratives about women, you know, in their thirties and forties and even fifties, are about escaping the life that they thought they wanted that didn't turn out the way that they'd hoped. when you have a narrator who's younger and whose world is just beginning, the opportunities are endless. They can kind of get away with doing all kinds of things. But I was going to say, I've been volunteering in the library at my daughter's middle school, and these kids are reading Throne of Glass, like 11 and 12 year olds with the horror of them re reading Sarah J. Moss, that's who those books are for. Let's be real.

Kelton:

yeah, but I, I mean like the horror, but you know, we had the internet when we were little. I, I'm, I think I was only 12 the first time I went to like, lit erotica on the internet and was like, what is happening here? You know, it's like, that's when I started my period. It's, you, it makes sense. And like Sarah J. Maas is like, honestly most of it is quite consensual, so.

Krisserin:

Sure, sure, sure, sure,

Kelton:

that. Um, and it's like about a woman getting the pleasure she wants in the way that So, I appreciate that that's where they're getting more of their lessons from. You know, rather than me, putting Napster on Shuffle and it bringing up the porn my brother had downloaded,

Krisserin:

Oh Jesus.

Kelton:

I was like, oh my God. You know? So like, uh, it's tough, but I think coming back to like the idea of like choosing your form.'cause when I started writing this fiction novel, the very seed of the idea was based on this town that I live in, where it feels like people don't age. People don't want anything to change, you know? And like, that's like the core, that is the core basis of the book that just flourished into this idea of like ghosts and time manipulation and shangrila. And obviously I could have also taken that idea to a classic memoir style of just writing about this town. And like when you have that core idea and you're trying to figure out like, is it fiction, is it nonfiction, is it memoir? Like where am I, how am I bringing this to life? I think, you know, like you we're like, I don't want to write about myself and for me, I don't want to do research. I also didn't want to put my town on the map in a really physical way. But that's like a, that's a thing people care about here. And because I care about these people, care about what they care about. So it was like, I'm not gonna write. Like, this is the town that I live in and this is the funny things about why elevation and sport have kept people younger longer. No, it's like also super boring. It's way more interesting to talk about the cemeteries. So, you know, I think an idea will tell you which direction. Often it feels more natural, not only for you, but for the idea.

Krisserin:

Or do you have these like lanes that you feel comfortable driving in and it's like you have an idea and you decide which lane you're going to drive that idea into? You know,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

I have really only written fiction, and not even short fiction. I'm terrible at keeping things concise. I like reading really long books. I like to be immersed in a world for an extended period of time. I think something that I would like to get better at is writing short story, but also writing essay. I have the opposite where I'm obsessed with the town that I grew up in when I was a kid in the desert, and it makes its way into everything that I write and I've long had an idea. Of wanting to put that city on the map because it is so obscure and it's one of those like little desert towns in the middle of nowhere that everyone drives past when they're going to other places and houses really interesting people and has an interesting history. You know, like the area has the Will Rogers museum. I bet you didn't know that.

Kelton:

know that.

Krisserin:

There is a like. Larger than life size statue of his horse trigger in like the downtown Victorville area, you know, which is really cool.

Kelton:

That is cool.

Krisserin:

the history of the area is crazy. Like my dad, um, ended up at a party with Charles Manson growing up there like nuts, nut, crazy shit happens out in the middle of the desert. And so I do wanna write either like a collection of short connected stories or even maybe a book of essays about that place. I just don't know until I out there and like sit down, like put my feet in the sand, which way it'll go. Probably. But I think that I, I'm, I like research. I, it's a way to like not write, pretend you're writing a little bit. So maybe I'll, look into that when I have some free time.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

on the, it's on my list of, I have quite a, like, list of things I want to write. I don't know about you. If you've got like a project list in your brain that you keep

Kelton:

I only have one. But I have, I have not pursued it. Ben has told me several times to pitch this idea to that editor at The Guardian, but it requires so much research that I'm like, I don't wanna do it. I know she's gonna say yes. And it's so, it's too much work. Much work. It's too, it's too much work for the, it's, honestly, that the idea I have in my mind is too much work for the payout is the honest answer. Even though I really like the idea and I think about it all the time, it's so much Googling and YouTubing in particular. This idea requires a lot of Vimeo and YouTube, and I'm like, I can't do that. I can't do it to myself.

Krisserin:

Maybe when you're in a place where is older and you have more time.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

you can find a place where the payout would be worth it. That's when the idea, well, it's like, I don't remember which writer was who was saying like, she's got all these characters that are floating around her, just waiting for her to pull them into existence. That's how I feel about story to, and those stories that sit in the back of your head, they kind of like surface a little bit and then go back. And I feel like one of these days you're just gonna be like, all right, it's your turn. And then you'll, you'll.

Kelton:

there's a fairytale that I tell, woods while he's falling asleep every night. I tell the same fairytale over and over and it gets like more elaborate and more detailed, and like the characters are like crystallizing. And I like know that I'm gonna, gonna write that story into a children's book at one point. But for now, I just tell the story every single night.

Krisserin:

Love that. That is so cool. I mean, any, any other advice you think you could give our listeners around how to choose the right form for the story that they're going to tell if they're considering starting a new project and toying with an idea?

Kelton:

I think if you have the idea, no harm in just like a spreadsheet and putting it in every box and seeing if it makes sense. Would this, could this be a memoir? Could this be this, could this be this? And if it was like, what would be the paragraph pitch on that? And if you're feeling like you, you're not sure how that works, listen you, I do now that I, I work for a company where I have to write about AI all the time do think however evil it is that you should know how to use ai. You should be well practiced in how to use ai. So if you have a kernel of an idea, like go to Gemini or go to chat GPT and be like, how would you bring this to life? In these six different genres and just see what it says and then see which of those do it yourself. Use a tool, but then see which of them speak to you. at the point of writing is that you're supposed to be excited about it. You're, it's supposed to be it's art, you know, like it should want to come out of you. And so if one of those methods is like, oh God, don't do that one. But it's cool to see how you could apply your idea across different genre and be like, oh, I could do that. Maybe that would be fun. Maybe that does feel safe. Maybe that is where I excel. Um, especially if you're just at that idea stage before you've really like, you know, dug, dug your lane, three feet deep and it's hard to lift the car out and get it somewhere else.

Krisserin:

The one thing that I feel, to that point that I've changed my mind about, especially with how this last year has gone with writing for me and, finding Kima, is that sometimes I, and I was gonna say, sometimes people, sometimes I feel like in order for something to be worthwhile, it has to be hard. You know, like in order for something to be done the right way, it, it requires effort and it has to be done in a way that feels earned. And sometimes, but I guess.

Kelton:

and being hard. I think art can be very separate.

Krisserin:

Hmm.

Kelton:

trying to teach myself that lesson. Maybe this is just for me, that something doesn't have to be hard for it to be really good and worthwhile.

Krisserin:

Yeah. And I think that's the point I'm trying to make is that I have resisted doing things that were, that seemed like they were the easy way to do them, because I felt like that wasn't the right way to do them, you know? I queried 70 agents instead of asking someone that I knew to help me look at my book, just for an example, you know, just like one, I, one thing that I did, but it's true. You know, and I, I think especially with certain projects, certain, like when you're writing a book, it's already so hard. Now I'm not saying go use AI to, to write your book. That would be a very easy thing to do, but, if it feels ya and you start writing the story and you're like, wow, actually this is so much easier to propel the story forward now that I'm thinking about it through a YA lens, even though I really want it, like I really want it to be a woman in her thirties. Maybe resisting that is the right thing to do, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Kelton:

Yeah, and I have a, I have a novel started with a woman in her thirties who has to be in her thirties. Like that book doesn't make sense unless she is in her thirties. So, you know, for that one, I'm like, I can go back to that character. I love that character. I just, that block, that particular project, struggles with plot. and so maybe that will come to me when I'm in my forties. So,

Krisserin:

Yeah, and that's the other thing I was gonna say. We made this point before, but sometimes putting something down and stepping away from it for a while can be really helpful. There are some stories that I know I wanna write, but I know that I can't write them right now. Like that about my hometown, that's something that I feel like I'm gonna wanna do in the next 10 years, but I don't want to do next year. I don't wanna do it right now. I have a historical fiction novel that I wanna write, which I know it's gonna be a while, like it's gonna take me a while to get there, but the character keeps coming up and like, my turn yet.

Kelton:

opera in my head and I'm just like, did you just let that one sit there, babe? We are not ready to do sci-fi.

Krisserin:

my God. I just read a really good space opera. I was gonna tell you about it. Have you heard of the author Becky Chambers?

Kelton:

Have I heard of her? I fucking love Becky Chambers.

Krisserin:

knew you would. I was like, this is such a Kelton book when I read it. Have you read the Long Way to a Small Angry Planet?

Kelton:

have. I've read it

Krisserin:

I just, I just finished it and now I'm waiting for like, have you read all four of the books in the Wayfairs series?

Kelton:

No, I haven't read the last one.

Krisserin:

Okay. I have them all in my, like, holds list for Libby and then I got a psalm for the Wild Built, which is like such a Kelton book I feel.

Kelton:

It cracked my top 10 immediately. A Psalm for the Wild Built is one of the most magical, modern books I've ever read. For me, that book is, is right up there in the, the same Venous Siddhartha and the Alchemist. Like, it's just one of those books that is like, sit down and think about your position in the world. It's not for everybody. As my book club read it, last month, and some of the girls were like, what? But if you like whimsy, you know, I just, I feel like that is the key element. If you like whimsy, this, that book is amazing. The series is amazing.

Krisserin:

Monk and Robot series, is that correct? Yeah. Well, speaking of other science fiction and speculative fiction novels, one of our lovely listeners sent us her book, Ali Gordon. She has a book coming out. It's called, we have Reached the End of our Show. It is a apocalyptic, like speculative fiction novel that I'm really excited to read and I'm gonna go to her event at Skylight Books this will have aired after that event, but I just wanted to give a shout out to Ali and say thank you for the kind note you wrote and for sending us your book. How exciting that our listeners are publishing books.

Kelton:

it's also a really good cover.

Krisserin:

Oh yeah. I mean, you guys, if you're watching, you can see it, but it's a very well designed cover and she lives in LA so I was like, we're getting coffee Ali We're getting coffee.

Kelton:

Ali.

Krisserin:

I, cannot wait to read a Kelton Wright Space Opera. I'm such a, a sucker for them, so yours is gonna be fantastic. I know it.

Kelton:

So much writing to do, so many clients to write for first.

Krisserin:

Well, you know, we, when we left off at the end of season one, you didn't have clients that was kind of a stressor for you. So I guess now you're just, you an overabundance of work to do, is a blessing and a curse. Yeah.

Kelton:

Yeah. I am grateful. I am, I am very grateful.

Krisserin:

So grateful to have to work. Start doing what I wanna do.

Kelton:

Um, just try trying to do it all. The classic.

Krisserin:

Have you thought, I thought about it today because you know, my mind wants to fly off into the world of what could be, but I was thinking about it today. I'm like, okay, let's say my book sells and books sell and I get a big fat check cut to me. I was like, okay, I wake up at five and I write, there's no way I don't think that I could write after like taking my kids to school and doing all this other stuff. I'm like, what would I do? What would you do if you didn't have to have clients and you could just write like, what would your days look like?

Kelton:

I talk about this all the time to myself. I often on my walks, I will introduce myself as if I am on a podcast, in the future, or I will just list the things that will have happened by this time in 2026, I list, I think about like. If I achieve everything, I want that version of me. What does she want? And then I talk about achieving those things. It's interesting because the shape of my days would not change very much, which to me is so indicative of how much I'm really enjoying my life right now. It's like I'd still be taken woods to daycare. I'd still be like hanging out in the park. I'd still be coming home and walking the dog. I'd still be hiking with the kid. You know, it's like I love the shape of my life. wish that the working hours weren't so, frenetic and. Dedicated to things that aren't my, like soul calling. So those hours would just be spent like, okay, like Monday I'm gonna work on the space opera. On Tuesday I'm gonna finalize this thing. And like Wednesday I'm gonna work on the newsletter. And like when I picture that future self, you know, this podcast and the newsletter are still in it. So I know that those things are like good. And like when I talk about 2026 Kelton, like she has a book deal for the memoir. When I talk about 20, 27 Kelton, the novel is like under a contract. So, uh, I, you know, I do this all the time and I,

Krisserin:

I need, I need lessons from you.

Kelton:

oh, and I'm always, I like a, one thing I would do that's really wackadoo is I'll like walk in the woods and I'll talk about, I'll be on my fake podcast and I'll be like, yeah, the month when I made a hundred thousand dollars in one month, that was when I really knew that it was time to just like focus on my writing. just like putting these numbers into existence so that they sound like things I could say because right now, you know, to me that sounds nuts, but I'm like, let's make it sound normal to me. Let's make it sound super normal to me. So, you know, I'm out there practicing my witchcraft.

Krisserin:

Man, I need to learn from you. I, I've got, I must have like a mental block. I just can't imagine what it would be like to not be a, uh, corporate shill

Kelton:

Yeah. know,

Krisserin:

logging into a teams meeting. Like I pulled last year's report and the numbers month over month.

Kelton:

it's important to remember that's who I was in 2019. Like it wasn't that long ago when I took like a crazy leap and was like, I'm gonna quit this job without another job and we're gonna drive around the country to find the place we wanna live. And then I'm magically gonna move to the most wonderful place on earth and it's gonna inspire this blog. You know, like there was a real domino effect of taking that leap of something it didn't feel like I could do dedicate myself to the next phase of life. And I think, you know, for you that might happen, like if the book sells really well, to just be like, you know what? I could always get one of these jobs again, but right now I have enough money to focus on writing and that's what I'm gonna do. Because like, I've and forth between taking jobs. It's not like in 2019 I was like, I'm never taking a full-time job again. Since then, I have taken three full-time jobs and you know, I quit two of them and one of them folded and like intermittently going back to like client work and all this stuff. So it's not like it was some magical switch forever. but there did have to be a magical switch. That I was just like, I'm gonna try this and see, and I think you just, you need to have the, the catalyst to do that. your catalyst is coming.

Krisserin:

Yes, my catalyst is gonna come because when we put the book out for submission, at the beginning of next year, there's gonna be a bidding war and it's gonna sell for a shit ton of money.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

I'm gonna have to quit my job because the second book only has 20,000 words written up. And I need to go to Taiwan and South Korea and the Philippines for research.'cause that's where the second book takes place. And I really want to do that while I can with my mom if possible.

Kelton:

I love

Krisserin:

She hasn't, she hasn't been back to the Philippines since she left when she was two.

Kelton:

just, I'm gonna line edit you.

Krisserin:

Hmm.

Kelton:

to go with my mom

Krisserin:

Yes.

Kelton:

if possible.

Krisserin:

Well, as they say, inshallah,

Kelton:

Oh my God. Come on. Come on.

Krisserin:

if we're all healthy and the world is at peace, that's.

Kelton:

course. Duh, duh. That's given. It's like starting your essay with, I think it's like you wrote the essay. We know You think it,

Krisserin:

All right. Okay. Kelton geez.

Kelton:

Oh God. Where are your manifestation practices?

Krisserin:

I'm horrible. I can't, I'm like, too, uh, I need a, I need a reality check. I need to go on a walk in the woods. Or maybe I need to take Rewilding the class.

Kelton:

Yeah. Sign up for the winter session.

Krisserin:

Well, Kelton, what does next week look like for you? What are your goals?

Kelton:

Okay. Well, the real time and space, by next week for me, the class that will be the day the class starts. So this week I'm focusing on that class and. Saying yes to the client, I said yes to this morning doing the last sales pitch. And I'll, I'll write, write where I can on the memoir. I do have some working hours that I know will be free and those will be dedicated to the memoir. We'll get closer and closer, but, for now it's sell out the class. A little bit of memoir.

Krisserin:

I like that.

Kelton:

Me

Krisserin:

I leave next Friday for Arizona, which I'm really excited about. I'm gonna go to Sedona with some friends. It's my birthday. A week from like the Monday after that I'm turning 41. I will no longer be a 40-year-old. I will be in my forties. I'm gonna sit down for an interview with Chelsea Hodson while I'm in Sedona'cause she happens to live there. Lucky lady. So we're gonna interview her for the podcast. And my goal is to print my book I leave, only because I have a whole day in my Airbnb by myself. And I wanted to spend it just like walking around with my book and like reading it out loud and like living in it and feeling it while I have some time to be a hundred percent by myself, which never, ever happens because I have a work retreat starting on the eighth. So the day after my birthday, I'm gonna start my 41st year immersing myself in my writing. That's my plan. I wanna finish the last a hundred pages of line edits and have that done before I leave for my trip. That is my goal between now and next week. Yeah. And I will say, I know that you're holding off on looking for agents, but you know, after I had my last call with Kima where we finished the consultation, she was like, go to the bookstore and look at the books that are on display and see the imprints that publish them and find out who the editors were. and so you could do that. I know you don't have a, a bookstore in your town, right? Like a big one. Okay.

Kelton:

in the town, in the, over the ridge, in the real town, there is a bookstore and it's very charming. It's very small, but, they do have really good taste. So, I can do that. And I feel like my town is honestly a pretty good sample of potential audience. So how books is good for me to know.

Krisserin:

yeah. Take pictures of the covers and the covers of books that you like because the art direction of the publishing house is important and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you can do all of that and not dive into the who's the agent yet. Like you can just like start building the repository so that when you're done, you can treat yourself doing that.

Kelton:

Okay.

Krisserin:

Something to look forward to. All right. Well, we've got our marching orders for the next week. I am hoping that, Wood's teeth will break through and you can get some sleep, and this client work isn't too crazy. I'm hoping that this week will be a good one for you, my friend.

Kelton:

Thank you.

Krisserin:

Yeah, yeah, of course. I will be waiting for your first three chapters in my inbox no later than October 12th.

Kelton:

Okay, that's noted. That's noted. You here. That's what I'm gonna do.

Krisserin:

I will be so annoying

Kelton:

They better be

Krisserin:

not there. I'll be nice about it. I'll be like, Kelton, I love you. No, I'm sure they're gonna be fantastic knowing you. I'm sure they're gonna be really great. I can't wait. All right, friends, thank you so much for listening to us. Yap. And I hope that this episode was helpful to you all. We'd love to hear from you. If you want to send us a note or your book that we can read it and talk about it, our email is officialpenpalspod@gmail.com. You can follow us on TikTok, the US owned algorithm, social media Network, fuck me, TikTok, Instagram, any, any of those, platforms, the Tech Overlords own@penpalspod, and we hope you have a great week. Happy writing.

Kelton:

Happy writing.

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Kelton Wright

Co-host
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Krisserin Canary

Co-host