Pen Pals

Keep Fishing: How to Build Confidence as a Writer

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 2 • Episode 4

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Krisserin's fighting off sickness while crushing her revision goals, and Kelton's Rewilding class just sold out. So why do they both feel like frauds? This week, they tackle the tricky bitch that is confidence—how to build it, maintain it, and why it's so much harder for women to claim it publicly.

Kelton reflects on a childhood spent being told she couldn't do things (seriously, fuck you, John from high school), and how that "no you can't" turned into rocket fuel. Krisserin shares how the world beat down her fearless younger self, and why the scary moments—the public readings, the vulnerable asks—are exactly when we grow the most. They discuss the double bind of being a woman: too humble and you're annoying, too confident and you're full of yourself.

The conversation gets practical about what actually builds confidence: doing the work, over-preparing until you can perform, separating your worth from your work, and finding the ease in what you do. Krisserin reveals she's been actively writing for nearly 20 years—a realization that hits different when you say it out loud. Kelton admits she walks through the woods rehearsing podcast interviews where she talks about making $100,000 in a month, just to make it sound normal to herself.

But the real confidence builder? Community. Whether it's Kelton's coven from doing The Artist's Way together or Krisserin's classmates from Harvard Extension who celebrated her agent news, having people who fan your flame makes all the difference. They challenge listeners to find their person, take a class, join a group—because your dream will die in the dark if you don't tell anyone about it.

Plus: Why successful women need to stop being so humble already, the importance of "casting a line" even when you'll probably get rejected, and Kelton's direct plea to actually rate the damn podcast.

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton:

Hi,

Krisserin:

Good morning. Hi.

Kelton:

How you doing?

Krisserin:

IFI don't know. I don't know. I'm feeling, I feel like I'm getting sick. I feel run down.

Kelton:

Interesting. You don't look sick. You look effervescent.

Krisserin:

It's the power and beauty of makeup can hide all kinds of sins. You know, how are you feeling? How are you doing?

Kelton:

I am doing okay. I'm doing okay. I was in a malaise last night as I was going to bed and I was like, why? Everything's great. Like, what are you, but, you know, hormones,

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

to you. I immediately went to the Clue app to be like, am I getting my period. I'm not, so unfortunately the mood was genuine,

Speaker:

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Krisserin:

I think that that was my problem because I started my period TMI, sorry. I was trying to still get up early and I was just exhausted. I took two naps on Friday,

Kelton:

wow.

Krisserin:

last week I was so, and then I went to bed at like 10. I was so tired

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

and, so I feel like I just needed rest, but I am feeling like my body, my throat, everything feels just really. It's off. So I've been not waking up early and trying to get more sleep, hoping that that would help. And I am about to take this long trip, so I'm like, shit, I can't get sick. But yeah, I was like, this would, this would make for a great, episode that would completely abandon all of our male listeners writing according to the phase of your period, your hormonal phase writing in the luteal phase.

Kelton:

Listen, I think that is a valid thing to talk about. And knowing that our listeners are like 75% women I would talk about that.

Krisserin:

Yeah, because it's been a struggle, but I'm hoping that I can get enough liquids in me over the next couple of days so that actually I leave. Tomorrow morning, I'm hoping I'll get enough rest and liquids and vitamins and all of the things in me so that I can go on this trip and not be miserable.'cause I just looked at the weather in Sedona and it's gonna be beautiful. It's gonna be like in the, in the seventies, all weekend. So.

Kelton:

a dream. I'm so excited for you. It's gonna be such a good trip. I think we do have to talk about did we accomplish our goals. Krisserin,

Krisserin:

Yeah. We should, we should do that. We should do that. Let's start with your goals. Yeah. Let's start with yours because I feel like you have some good news to share on the, on the Rewilding front anyway,

Kelton:

by the time this podcast airs, I'll be like a week into the rewilding, which sold out. So I, I met my goals. I'm so excited. I'm hosting the first class for me tonight. and I am, I'm really, really genuinely jazzed about it. I do feel like some of that, that emotional arc of like leading up to it has resulted in kind of that malaise I was mentioning earlier that it's just like, I'm so. I'm so through the phase of selling that my body's like settling back into itself. And I'm really excited to actually host the class and like be with the material and meet the people. There's a wait list for, winter and spring if you wanna, be included and hear about what's coming up, I'm happy to add you to the mailing list. Yeah, I'm jazzed. And I also relevant to this podcast, I did finish the first chapter for the memoir proposal. I wanna get two more locked in, but the first chapter is good. I feel good about that. I do feel like I need to tell our listeners this because I did tell Krisserin this earlier, but I did start looking. Potential agents. I had like 10 minutes of free time and I was like, rather than enjoy these 10 minutes peacefully, I'm gonna fill it with work. So I looked up the agents for Nature focused memoirs that I love, like H is for Hawk and Braiding, Sweetgrass and a few others, just to see if those agents. We're open to querying if they've had other books in that area that I really like. I've never looked at agents before, so this was like a really new for me to have any curiosity around. And, just felt kind of, sparkling and new.

Krisserin:

So exciting. Can I just say, I was thinking about this the other day. What an inspiration you are because I, my, my goal in terms of writing of what I wanna do is eventually be a teacher I wanna teach. And here you are already doing it. I think it's so amazing. And you're gonna have this group of women who are going to be able to learn so much from you and you're gonna create a community and they're gonna become friends and they're gonna say, I met in Kelton Wright's class So I think that's so amazing. And I also really enjoyed I got your Wednesday newsletter'cause I am a paid subscriber to Shangrilogs. And have been for a long time now. But I like that you had our October 12th deadline committed into writing in your newsletter. And I was like, that's right. That's right. That deadline's for me

Kelton:

That deadline is

Krisserin:

put it to me.

Kelton:

right. Yeah. And that it's really, it has really been helpful to have that, to push through on these last three chapters, you know?'cause you can just drag your feet when you're close.

Krisserin:

Totally,

Kelton:

So tell me, did you meet your goals?

Krisserin:

I did, I actually finished editing the rest of the book over the weekend,

Kelton:

Wow.

Krisserin:

and that was a great feeling. I do feel like I wanna go back just on the first chapter and on the end and tighten things up a little bit, little things that I, I'm, now that I've started looking at the second book again, I'm like, Ooh, I don't know if I want, if I, I don't know if that plot line that I set up, I still wanna explore in the second book. So now I have the opportunity to think about the, the bridge between the two of them a little bit more. I did finish the first 50 pages of the second book, and I kind of just wanna keep going'cause I feel some momentum and

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

it's really exciting. I, I like, forgot about the story that I started and so I was like, Ooh, I'm remembering all these little things that I put in here and there and, so on paper, yes, I finished. My goals for the last week, and now I'm kind of like, Hmm, what do I do next? Because my deadline was December 1st and it's October 2nd, so I'm like, I have two months. Or I guess I could send it to Kima early, but I do have some time. I think that one niggling question that I still have around authorial voice is still there. So that's kind of what I want to think about a bit in the next couple of months. But I did for all intents and purposes, and by definition, complete my goals for the week.

Kelton:

That is awesome. That is awesome. I'm so impressed. You're really crushing it.

Krisserin:

I think though my body caught up to me, I think that this was the week where my body was like, okay, you need to sleep because you are not getting enough of that, and I'm just gonna shut down and you're gonna get sick if you keep trying to do this, but you make the choice.

Kelton:

Yeah. It.

Krisserin:

It's up to you. Do you wanna finish this stuff or do you wanna get sick and be in bed and not get, go on your trip? So that's where I'm at.

Kelton:

As she picks up a giant glass of water,

Krisserin:

I'm hydrate now. I'm hot. I was cold, so I got tea and I'm hot.

Kelton:

Keep it balanced. Okay. I think we gotta dive into what we're talking about today, and I, I think from the stress and the malaise, it kind of adds up perfectly to this topic. We're talking about confidence this week. ooh, what a tricky bitch she can be. She ebbs and flows. She goes, as a river, does not care about you. I was really struggling with confidence throughout September. I just felt in many ways, very exposed as I was kind of. You know, bludgeoning, everyone with sales pitches about the class. And my confidence really wavered in those months. Thankfully I had a goal that I had to stick to, so it didn't really matter if I was feeling insecure or low self-esteem, I just had to keep going. But it didn't, it didn't like feel great.

Krisserin:

when I texted Kelton, I was like, what do you wanna talk about on the pod? She was like, confidence? that's how I heard it in my head. Confidence.

Kelton:

Yeah, not even confident about pitching the topic.

Krisserin:

I was like, yeah, let's do it. Who's she? I don't know her. I think it's funny that outwardly, I feel like, and I'm sure you get this a lot too, but outwardly I get a lot of feedback that I appear very confident and very brazen, which is so funny.'cause internally I don't feel that way at all, ever. But I believe that confidence is just doing the thing that you set out to do and just to show up continually over and over again. I think doing this podcast the labor of love that it is, probably comes off as us being very confident.'cause we just, you know, set up microphones and yap and you know, if, if a bunch of, men can do it, we can do it too, right? But I really do believe that, our internal belief in ourselves and our abilities is one thing. But just continuing to do the work over and over again and showing up and sitting down in front of your computer, that is a confidence in itself. That is a confidence in your belief that you're gonna figure it out or you're gonna at least try. Because if we lacked confidence, we wouldn't completely, we wouldn't do anything. We would just fold in on ourselves and let our dreams die. But we don't do that.

Kelton:

Yeah, it's true. I mean, I, I do feel like a rather confident person. I think it, I would be lying if I was like, I'm not confident most of the time. I get like mad when people don't like my work. I'm like, it's good. What's wrong with them? You know, like I, I do have an overabundance of confidence, but my, you know. My baseline might be high, but that doesn't mean that I don't feel insecurities or, or wonder like, what am I doing? It's like I have those, those moments where you just have to be like, well, I'm doing it because I love it and I like it, and it's like I'm trying to do things that make my life feel good, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they will be successes. And trying to separate confidence from success is a lifelong battle for me.

Krisserin:

It's funny because I don't feel confident most of the time, and which we've talked about this, where I, use fiction to hide myself behind my character and not expose myself as willingly and as freely as you do with your writing, which I admire so much. But I would say when I was young, I was very confident. I thought I could do anything. I was told that I could do anything and, was called fearless, and I would go, you know, ride my horse, bear back into the desert and come. Back home when the sun came down by myself with no fear whatsoever. And as I got older, the world started to beat me down and I lost a lot of that confidence and became very insecure. And I went into college, very insecure and I think it took me a really long time to break down my insecurities and to believe in myself again. And a lot of it was in doing the things that terrified me that were really scary at every point in my life. And in my writing and my career, whenever I did the scary thing, that was the moment that I really saw the biggest growth and got the biggest reward. And you know, I think that when you are scared to do something, when you're lacking confidence in your ability to achieve a goal or to tackle something really difficult, that's when that's a sign that you should be doing it. Because it is the moments like that where we test our medal, that we really find that we have the tools to rise to the occasion. And I remember when I applied for my fellowship and then had to do a reading the first time in front of a group of people. Wow. Was that terrifying? I, I really hate, I, maybe this has come as a surprise to some people is I get very nervous talking in front of a crowd and, like my voice will warble. I, it is bad. I, although I love performing, so I don't know how to, how those two things align. Again, what I did was I just over-prepared, and I think that that is the best thing that you can do to gain confidence is to just over prepare and do the work. So I read my piece to myself out loud until I had it memorized, so when I stood up in front of a crowd and here I'm reading the piece, I could just perform it because I know it like the back of my hand and because I studied acting and was in choir. I knew where to take a breath,

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

what words to emphasize, when to look at the crowd. And it freed me to stop thinking about the words on the page and how people were gonna judge my writing and put me into a place where I was, just performing. And again, it is a mask. It is a way to separate my worth and my value from the thing that I'm putting out into the world. Because as much as you know, they are very intertwined. You kind of have to separate yourself from them a little bit and just focus on the work. And I think that that's where confidence can be born.

Kelton:

I think it's, you know, it percolates throughout the process like the rewilding. I have rehearsed. Tonight's class several times. Like I wrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it, and then I built it and rebuilt it and rebuilt it, and then I rehearsed it and rehearsed it, and rere rehearsed it. And I, I do feel ready for it tonight, but I still know that some things will come off the cuff and, and you know, I'll be reacting to the crowd in that way. earlier when you mentioned that, like you. You were told you could do anything. I, I instinctually was like, oh, same. And then as I thought about it, I was like, no, that's not true. I was told repeatedly I could not do things over and over and over, that I could

Krisserin:

Okay.

Kelton:

arts. I could not be a writer. I could not be an artist or a singer or an actor. could not lead the morning announcements. Like there are all these like memories for me where it's like people were really tamping me down my entire childhood and I thankfully was born with a fury. Because the whole time I was just like, you can't tell me what I can and can't do and I think that that. You know, that was a real, like pressure on the coal into diamond where everyone was trying to push me down and down and down, and it, it turned that coal into that like, fiery confidence of like, determination. I don't, I wonder as I'm saying that out loud, if it really is confidence or if it is just. Fuel where I'm like, I will do this. Not because I feel confident that I can be, but because I am so irritated that you told me I couldn't. I feel like that that's sort of my like historical narrative of confidence is being so frustrated with other people saying I can't, then me. Going out there and making a fool of myself repeatedly being like, yes, I can. Yes I can. And I do think that is where my confidence waivers the most now, is I, there are so many things that I feel like I should have done by now, guided by that determination, and I'm frustrated that I have not achieved them because I'm like, maybe they were right. Maybe I can't. And it's like, I don't even talk to any of the people who said that I can't, they're nowhere near the, you know, the orbit of my life. But they, they lurk in the background. John.

Krisserin:

see, we talked about John before, right? Was this, remind me?

Kelton:

John was the

Krisserin:

This is the guy.

Kelton:

That I could really do something if I focused less on my social life.

Krisserin:

That's right. Fuck that guy.

Kelton:

Senior year of high school, like, shut up, John.

Krisserin:

Shut up John. Everyone has a John. Yeah. I wonder. Trying to chase confidence is a fool's errand, ultimately because confidence, in my mind, confidence comes with work. It is, I have done the work and I know that this work is good, or I put everything into this work and if it's not good, we'll too fucking bad, you know?

Kelton:

It

Krisserin:

because.

Kelton:

joy. like, but like enjoying things and doing them the way you want to and having a good time. You know, whenever you see someone who looks really confident and often there's a sense of ease about them, that they're enjoying themselves. I always think about I can't, I can't remember who, which coworker it was many, many moons ago. An an older woman I worked with was like, if you have to adjust the skirt while you're wearing it, you should never buy it. Like, you'd never wanna touch your clothes when you're wearing them because it makes you look insecure. And I think about that all the time. As like a, a way of being easeful in yourself and that that ease, that being relaxed in your own situation, your body is what, like, makes confidence appear physically. And I try to apply that principle sometime work. Like, I be easeful in this? Do I enjoy it? Like, can I relax into this? And then I, I find confidence can often come from there. But, but to your point, like also from just doing the work. It's like once you do the work, you're like, yeah, like that's what brought me to being able to say I'm an essayist. Well, it's'cause I've written an essay every week for four years. Like, yeah, I'm an essayist. Whether I'm like a mediocre one or a really talented one, doesn't matter. I am one.

Krisserin:

Same goes for saying that you're a writer. You know, a lot of people, we've talked about this, not wanting to call yourself one. And even now when people ask me, what it is I do, I, I cringe a little bit at calling myself a writer, but I've been doing it for so long now. I've written like four books. Even if this is the first one that. Something might come of, I've written a lot, so I think I deserve to call myself a writer. Maybe I'm not a published author, but I'm

Kelton:

soon. I do wanna

Krisserin:

you know.

Kelton:

though, obviously there's a lot of authors, especially women who in interviews come with such humility, I find that ingratiating when they're really successful, I, I find it so annoying when someone's had several bestsellers and is like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm like, at some point I need you to step into the box of knowing what you're doing and appreciating that you are in. that box, like, look at your surroundings. and I, I don't know how to square that with my own, my own feelings. I do where I feel like I am in the box, try to be in that box for other people to be like, I, I, I can help you get here if you want to. But it frustrates me when people who have been really successful don't have that confidence. And I don't know if that's fair of me to put on them.

Krisserin:

Who, who are we talking about here?

Kelton:

I am not gonna name names. I'm not gonna name names, um, but, um.

Krisserin:

Women are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If we're too humble, then we're like, Ugh, that's so annoying. You're a bestselling author. Just acknowledge that. If they are too vocally confident, then we're like, Ugh, she's so annoying. Who does she think she is? She's so full of herself.

Kelton:

I guess

Krisserin:

I think.

Kelton:

they're full of themselves though. Like I'm looking for that. I want

Krisserin:

I know.

Kelton:

and that that is, I, I agree with you, like in culture, broadly, damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

would rather be damned for doing,

Krisserin:

I think that what's difficult with authors is we look to them as mentors, as teachers, as sages, as people who are trying to impart wisdom about the way that the world works in a way that we don't understand. And we, we look up to those people and so when they do get in front of a camera, in front of a microphone and speak, we probably have a lot of unfair expectations of them, of what we want them to say and who we want them to be.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

But at the end of the day, they're just human beings, like all of us. And who knows if they are comfortable in that position? Writers are very hermetic people. We just wanna go and hide in our cave and write our little stories, you know, and some, there I can think of several writers who go out and represent themselves and their ideas and their philosophies with a lot of confidence. And those are the, Toni Morrisons and Bell Hooks of the world, who we really do, look to for advice and for an understanding of how the world works. But I think the Ursula K. Le Guin there, it's, it's hard. I think it's really difficult. And, for me, I don't know how I would respond. I'm I, I'd probably peacock the shit out of it. Be like, ah, yes, I'm a writer. Ask me, ask me everything.

Kelton:

anything.

Krisserin:

My, my face will be perfectly beat. I'm gonna wear an amazing outfit. I can't wait. But yeah, I, I get what you mean. It's like we've put in all of this work. You've reached the top of the mountain. Don't hide under a rock just because you're a woman and there's an expectation of you to be humble. You know how much, how I feel about that.

Kelton:

Oh, I know. I think that that's why we're co-host'cause we're aligned on it.

Krisserin:

Come on, bitch. Put your big girl panties on. Okay.

Kelton:

Ah, how do

Krisserin:

Yeah,

Kelton:

on your confidence other

Krisserin:

just by doing, doing the work, I just, honestly, I think it's hard for me, like I said, for. The way that I, I, I'll just speak to the moments in which I've had to stand up in front of a crowd and represent myself and my work. It was just through an overabundance of preparation. I have to get lost in the words in order for me to feel like I, it's not me that I'm, because that's my problem, is how can I divorce myself from the work that I'm putting out and not make it a reflection of me as a person and my value as a human being and make it just about the words on the page. That is, I think,

Kelton:

You're

Krisserin:

biggest thing.

Kelton:

you're really good at casting a line you're really good at, at fishing all day. Um, and like, yes. You know, it's like, I don't think, maybe you're not thinking of it this way, but when I picture your confidence, like I think of your ability to just query. All those people to come back to projects that you'd abandon and re rebuild them and reach out to Kima before she was your agent. To be like, will you listen to this book? To have people edit it you are, you are always willing to cast a line. And that is, that vulnerability is a huge sign of faith in yourself and confidence and I think in order to. Do that over and over again. You do have to have a, a sort of resilience to your confidence.'cause it can, you know, like I know people who, it just like, it put them into their corner and they were like, I'm never doing that again. And I have not experienced that with you at all. You're just like, I'm gonna torture myself again. gonna torture myself again this week. This week I'm gonna torture myself again. And that takes confidence. And I think it also builds it in a way, like if you can nurture your confidence in that way, you know, like if you keep getting bucked off the horse and you never ice your bruises or check your helmet, like yeah, eventually you're not gonna get back on. But you do a good job of tending to yourself in between these moments so that when you come back, you're stronger.

Krisserin:

Yeah, I think that that's the, the key is I do let myself go in a corner in sulk for a little bit, and then, you know, I, I've been, now I have been committed to writing. I think I started, yeah, I started classes at UCLA extension in 2008. I graduated from college in 2006, and I was already working on my first book. It is 2025. So I have been actively writing and working on trying to be a published author for almost 20 years. That's fucking crazy.

Kelton:

It's

Krisserin:

thought about it that way. I took a ton of classes at UCLA extension from 2008 to 2012, I had my fellowship in 2013. You know, it is 2025 and I'm, I finally have gotten an agent. I know that over the course of those many years, so much has happened in my life. I have gotten. I, you know, I've sent my books to friends and had them just like rip me a new asshole and completely destroyed my confidence and lost lost friendships, I've had incredible highs of, you know, getting that fellowship and, and working with mentors that poured their confidence into me and made me feel really good about myself. And I don't think, without mentorship, without guidance, without doing the work, I would've been able to get back on the horse. But it is something that I continue to come back to because yeah, I am have a husband, I have children, I have a career, but writing is the thing that I do for me. I do all of those other things for other reasons that are not for me.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

the husband and the kids, I, I love and their part, you know, they're, they're hugely important to me and my identity and my, my spirit. But, there's a lot of service that goes into having family and to having children. And I, I definitely remind my daughter that she's gonna wipe my ass someday. She's like,

Kelton:

Can't wait, mom.

Krisserin:

she's like, mom, we have bidets.

Kelton:

Oh my God. Wow. Do I love her? Holy moly.

Krisserin:

She's, she's great. But writing is the thing that I come back to because it is the thing that I do in service of myself. And I think that as women, we have to have that thing. And it doesn't have to be writing. It could be art, it could be crochet or, or,

Kelton:

Horseback

Krisserin:

know, horseback riding, animal taking care of animal, whatever it is, you know. We have to do things in service of ourselves because the world demands so much service, to others, period. Full stop when you're a woman. And men don't need that permission. They don't need permission to go and do things for themselves. So I think that's probably why I've continued to do it because the little girl in me who was told that I could do anything and that I should go off and have adventures never really went away. And that's I think also why I write so much about that time in my life and about the desert because there was a point where I felt truly free to be as adventurous and as bold as I was allowed to be as I wanted to be. And I'm always trying to get back to that place. So, but thank you for the compliment. I like that. Just keep fishing.

Kelton:

I do feel like I'm finally in the place where I am free to just like. Be as fucking weird as I want. I mean, it's uncomfortable to be fully in who I am, and have to like, you know, deal with other people adjusting to what that looks like. But it does feel It feels great. It, I think in our modern world where. Every perception of you and your work can be quantified. it is really challenging to preserve that sense of self and to take care of it and to allow it to grow.'cause you can get really caught up in the like, oh, I shared the most authentic version of myself and it had, a 500% decrease in how much people liked it. You know, you're like, you have to kind of be able to step away from that and be like, how much did I like it? How much did I like it? How much joy does it bring me? and that, that is, that is an uphill battle right now. And like one I, I hope society can step away from in the next decade.

Krisserin:

You know, I was, I was thinking about it. I went to Ali Gordon's book Launch.

Kelton:

Yeah. Ali Gordon.

Krisserin:

Yeah, I got her book right here. I actually bought another copy while I was at Skylight even though she was kind enough to send us, copies of her book because we buy our friends books. Ali's my friend now. And it really, I was thinking about it because we don't get a lot of inbounds in our officialpenpalspod@gmail.com inbox, but we have gotten a few. Every time we get one, it is like an injection of, of confidence and, this feeling that we're doing the right thing, it really only takes one person to get something out of my work, to make me feel like, yeah, I'm doing, I'm doing the right thing. And just think about, I, I think about my teachers that I've had and all of the classes that I've taken and if, if you coming out of the rewilding affect one of your many students, that is a huge accomplishment. That is my goal in life, is to have a positive impact on other people in some way, shape, or form. So I think that as much as we want to quantify our impact with open rates and click through rates and comments and engagement rates and all of this other nonsense. If you impact one person, I think it's meaningful.

Kelton:

I had on my resume for a long time in my like, like brief bio that my objective was just to help people live happier lives. I, I have recently edited that. A bit to say that, like the work I do is in service of helping women love their lives. Because I think happiness is like a, it's not a metric that I find as useful anymore. And I also just feel like I am, I really do love when men appreciate my work, but I find that women appreciate it more and more often. And, you know, just having people sign up for my class to me is a sign that my work has already impacted them and that they have faith that it will impact them further. I deeply hope that at the end of the class that people are moved enough to give testimonials and that this is something I can continue to do because I, I do feel called to do it and really excited about it. But, yeah, it's like just I recently, Ann Helen Peterson, who writes culture study on Substack, had asked for. Prompts for the general threads of how her community engages. And one of the prompts I offered was, what list do you wanna see when you're dead? for me, I would really like to see a list of everyone who ever had a crush on me. I also want to see a list of where everything I lost ended up. But when she prompted the, her whole community with this idea, someone did say, I want to see a list of all the people's lives I changed without knowing it. And I thought that was a, such a beautiful sentiment because you just, you have no idea. Like that woman, I can't remember who told me to buy skirts that fit me comfortably. I hope that the class has the chance to improve circumstances for at least a few of them, because when you are, you are improved in that way, you can more easily help other people. That's like, that's the, the percolating ripple effect that I want from my writing that I want from all of my work is just like, I'm trying to, to connect with people in a way where they have that, that deep sigh of like, ah, she gets it.

Krisserin:

Yeah, and I, I think just going back to the importance of community. Building, you know, people around you who have the same goals as you and wanna support your dreams is so important and you're building community with your class Ali's Book Launch the other night was fantastic. She had two perform three performers and a bunch of friends in the audience and people who came to support her. And it's, you know, I think that that also is a confidence builder when you have people around you who are like, fuck yeah. Like I got to text my, the group of, classmates from Harvard Extension. I'm still in their group chat even though I'm not enrolled anymore. I got to text them and tell them that I got agent and they were so excited for me. And it's like you need those people. And if you are lacking confidence, I think. It's very easy, again, for your dream to die in the dark when you don't tell anybody about it. So go find a class, go find a group, go find people who are doing the thing that you also want to do. Be cautious with the people that you know. You want people who really are supportive and who you can also support. But go find other people who can help you, you know, foster. Fan the flame of the confidence and be alongside you as you're doing the work because it's easy to lose it when you don't have anyone else who's asking you like, Hey, how's writing going? How, you know, how, how is, how is it, how are your dreams finding themselves these days? And you'll find, and I, I find it with me. It's not just the teachers and the mentors that have had a positive impact on my life. It's the classmates that I've had who are encouraging me and rooting for me and, want to follow along on the journey. So

Kelton:

Yeah, and

Krisserin:

I'm excited for your class.

Kelton:

I'm excited and I can't recommend enough just, reach out to like. One or two friends of yours that you know would be down to do the artist's way and have like, oh, a monthly, weekly, zoom about it and have them reach out to their one or two friends who might do it and get a group of like eight or nine people and do the artist's way together. I guarantee, well, I guess I shouldn't say I guarantee, but I find it is quite likely that at least six of them will become a type of coven to you when you go through that kind of creative exercise together. When you're choosing people, not based on like, these are my six friends, but like these are the two friends I know who would be into this and these are their two friends who I know would be into this to like expand your network and like meet people who can drive you forward. That is like the origin. Of the class for me is, I have one of those little covens where I knew or three of the girls, but didn't know the other six. And it was like we did the artist's way together. And now I have found these, like very deep, motivating friendships that aren't, they're all digital, you know, I, I don't, none of these people live here. But I reached out to them with the initial idea of the class and they are. They're the reason that it's happening. And so like if you're dragging your feet on a project, if your confidence is like not working, get somebody else's'cause, like that will skyrocket that. Speaking of which, if you are still listening at this point in the episode and you have not rated this podcast, you could even rate it four stars. I'm not saying rate it five stars, but

Krisserin:

Stop. No, don't Down.

Kelton:

I'm like, if you have been listening and you are still listening and you have not just been like, yes, five stars. Yes, I love these girls, you should listen. It takes like 10 seconds and it, it has, you know, it's kind of one of those ripple effects for other people. So I'm asking you, you've made it this far to do so.

Krisserin:

See, I love, here's the difference between you and me. Okay. You're just really good at putting yourself out there in that way. When you're talking about selling your class, like I, I know I would be so bad at that. Promoting myself in any way, shape, or form is just it it makes me. I've already, like my tummy is already having a reaction to the thought of it. So what, eventually when I, my book gets published and I have to go out and promote it and ask people to buy it, I'm gonna go through this, but you're so good at at just like doing it and being like, take my class, rate the podcast, subscribe to my substack, become a paid member. I just think that that's so incredible because if you don't ask, people, don't do it. And I think that, I forget that, and it's not. Asking doesn't mean that you're telling like they have anyone has to do anything. They just, you're giving them the option.

Kelton:

You gotta,

Krisserin:

I.

Kelton:

with the reality that sometimes asking does turn people off. Like, as I was promoting the class on my substack, I did get some people unsubscribed, and I felt like it was because of all the promotion and selling. And that, that's just the reality is like some people are like, eh. Gross. And it's like, no, it like, listen, if that's how someone feels about you asking for them to support you in your dreams, then like I, you don't want them around. always what I come back to. Is that like. If that is someone's attitude about something, if they don't wanna support each other and be part of this commune, because I go outta my way to support my friends too. I'm constantly putting people in my newsletter and shouting them out on Instagram. It's important to me to make sure that there's reciprocity in that, that I'm not always asking without giving. And if someone isn't part of that ecosystem, that's fine. That's just not for them. But they should still rate the podcast five stars before they stop listening.

Krisserin:

And share it with a friend who you think would get something out of it. No, it's true. And, you know, I had to learn that the hard way over the like 20 years that I've been writing and I remember I had this friend back in college who was also a writer, and I like the minute I got a job at Harper Collins as an intern, she just went completely left on me and it was the weirdest thing and it's like, okay, well I guess we weren't friends. I thought we were friends. I'm very naive when it comes to those things. Sometimes it takes me a while to realize oh, this person is not my friend. I thought we had a friendship, but it was some weird dynamic that I didn't, of course Boyan saw it a mile away and he is like, I told you so, and I'm like, damn it. I hate it when he's right. But. If, if your friends are not celebrating your wins with you, they're not your friends. If your friends are not. Big upping you when you have an achievement, they're not your friends, honestly. And this is what we're talking about when we're talking about building up community and confidence. Because if you surround yourself with the wrong people who are going to take digs at you when you do have achievements or when you are trying to do something, there is nothing that kills your confidence more than someone that you thought was a friend shitting on something that you feel is important. Like that is just the worst feeling. So, take notice when you are celebrating something and your friends are not celebrating them with you. Those are not your, your true friends. But going back to this idea of. Trying to find community and the artist's way, if that's not accessible to you, if you do not have people. In your life who are doing the same things as you or, you would feel comfortable reaching out to, to do those things. See if there are local groups or classes that you can take. I just saw it was crazy. I just saw at the library near me, the public library, there's a writer's group, you know, or, and there are book clubs and these things are free and if that feels awkward and scary to you, just go to one. Just go to one meeting and it might not be the right group. Like I've joined writing groups where I was like, this is not for me. Like this is not the right group for me. These are not the right people to read my work. Fine, but keep looking. And there will be a group out there look for opportunities, whether it's like a writing class at a community college, if there's a college nearby you that has an extension program that has a writer's program, if there are online classes that you can take, there's a ton of online writing schools now that have workshops find something, sign up for something and meet other people. You need one person. One person who can be your, your journeyman. That you can walk the path to mordo. You need one to help you, and that one person will help you build your confidence and you can help them build your confidence and you can find that partner to be your, your writing buddy. And I think it makes all the difference. Having community really does. So that's my, that's my spiel, that's my my speech.

Kelton:

Krisserin and I met like 10 years ago a job. Both of us are glad we don't have anymore. And it was only like, and you know, we had, we remained friends, across the decade, but it was only last year that you were like, I think we should seriously be writing buddies and look at us now.

Krisserin:

Look at us now. I, well, I, to be fair, I reached out and I was like, I think we should write a book together.

Kelton:

That's

Krisserin:

really do. I really do wanna write a book with someone someday. Like I, I think it would be really fun to do. No one's taken me up on it yet. Somebody.

Kelton:

wanted to do that, and then I just like, I just didn't, I didn't know how to do that.

Krisserin:

No, it's okay. It'll work itself out someday. Yeah. I'm looking for the, Terry Pratchett, neil Gaman. I want one of those partners. I think that, which by.

Kelton:

to that email one day with an another chapter and you're gonna be like, oh shit.

Krisserin:

I am ready. I will say, and we can segue into our goals for the next week, but I did a AI search, sorry, rainforest. Around authorial voice and third person, POV in YA novels, because I was like, I need some guidance. I don't know how to approach this note from KEA and. C Claude was like, this is not a common thing, in YA third person, POV novels. But it did give me some examples and one of them was Terry prt. I'm like, of course, the master. And then Lee Bar Dugo and the six of Crows series, duology actually. So I went and when I was at Skylight, I bought, six of Crows in Crooked Kingdom because I read them on. Kindle and I might as well own them.'cause I loved those books and my daughter could read them someday and I opened up the book and I was just let me see. And it was right there on the page. I'm like, damn it,

Kelton:

That's

Krisserin:

this is, this is gonna be. I know that's where my, my confidence dies, where I'm like, do I have it in me to, do I have a style? I don't know. I don't know what my authorial style is. It's a horrible thing to admit. I'm admitting it.

Kelton:

I couldn't

Krisserin:

but the,

Kelton:

mine is.

Krisserin:

you

Kelton:

I know it when I

Krisserin:

have,

Kelton:

but.

Krisserin:

have a distinct. Authorial style, like there is a kelton voice that I, I is very easily recognizable to me. But I don't, when I read my book, I don't know, I don't know. That's my goal for the week is to read and figure that out and then keep, I'm going to get to the end of the amount of pages I have in book two. I have 189 pages, so I guess you just gotta start. Finishing the first draft of that book, but that's not for next week. That is just, yeah, that's in the, in the cars in the near future.

Kelton:

to figure out your entire, voice

Krisserin:

Yes. No big deal. Yeah. What are your goals for the next week?

Kelton:

My goal is to finish the memoir proposal, enough where I'm like doing like a overview edit of it and the chapters so that by the 12th I can get it to you. That's my goal.

Krisserin:

Any impediments to that goal that you can foresee?

Kelton:

Work child, husband what else? Yeah, there's some, yeah, the world. But I, no, it's like now that I'm done selling and I just, I, I I do wish that I could take a break from the newsletter. And I just don't feel like it's the right time to do that. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna power through and maybe the essays for this week's newsletter are just a little weak.

Krisserin:

I'm sure there's still gonna be great knowing you.

Kelton:

We will see. But that's my goal. You know, it's like you gotta, you gotta balance it and like, some stuff just gets a little less attention. And that's, that's the reality of it.

Krisserin:

So funny.

Kelton:

Rate

Krisserin:

well

Kelton:

Subscribe to the newsletter.

Krisserin:

do it.

Kelton:

on all of the platforms, pen pals pod.

Krisserin:

We post cute clips there.

Kelton:

post such cute clips and, and email us at official pen pals pod@gmail.com. You can ask us things, uh, about ourselves. You can tell us what to talk about in an episode. You can send us your arcs. You can tell us where you're stuck with your story. You could ask us anything. We

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

many opinions. Listen to us. Yap.

Krisserin:

we do have a lot of opinions. If you have a friend, if you have a writing buddy that you wanna shout out, we will love to acknowledge anyone out there who is, engaging in a similar pen pals format with their friends and helping each other along let us know. We'd love to hear from you.

Kelton:

I'm feeling more confident already.

Krisserin:

Same. I'm excited. It's gonna be a good week.

Kelton:

Happy writing everybody.

Krisserin:

Happy writing.

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Kelton Wright

Co-host
Head Shot

Krisserin Canary

Co-host