Pen Pals
Join writers and parents Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright as they navigate the journey of publishing their first novels. From California to Colorado, these friends share their experiences with first drafts, revisions, query letters, and the rollercoaster of rejection. Each episode offers an honest look at balancing creative ambitions with daily life, featuring candid conversations about writing craft, time management, and staying motivated. Whether you're a fellow writer or just love a good behind-the-scenes story, Pen Pals proves that every creative journey is better with a friend.
Email us at: officialpenpalspod@gmail.com
Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios
Pen Pals
Chelsea Hodson on Tumblr Fame, Cold Emails, and Writing at 2:30 AM
Krisserin's broadcasting from Scottsdale, Arizona (after getting two speeding tickets in the same spot) while Kelton's racing to finish her memoir proposal. But the real star of this episode is their first Season 2 guest interview: Chelsea Hodson, author of Tonight I'm Someone Else, founder of Rose Books, creator of the Morning Writing Club, and now a musician releasing her debut single.
Chelsea shares her unconventional path to publication—from studying journalism when professors warned "this career is dead," to cold-emailing Sarah Manguso to become her personal assistant in exchange for editing help. Her breakthrough came through daily discipline: a Tumblr project called "Inventory" where she photographed herself with every object she owned and wrote one paragraph. Posting every day for two years, she went from 10 followers to 20,000—and caught the attention of a literary agent.
The conversation digs deep into the hard parts of being a writer: the editor who dismissed her essay with "girls always write about camp," the MFA instructor who told her to throw away a piece and start over, the agent who quit publishing the week her manuscript was due. Chelsea reveals how these crushing moments actually strengthened her work—teaching her to double down on what makes her writing different instead of conforming to others' expectations.
Practical wisdom abounds: Why Chelsea wakes up at 2:30 AM to write before her toddler wakes up. How she used exposure therapy (posting on Tumblr daily) to overcome her fear of publishing. Why she spent her book advance touring instead of waiting for her publisher. The importance of reading work aloud to know when it's truly done. And why publishing a book won't solve your inner perfectionism—it might actually magnify it.
Plus: Krisserin finishes revising both books and sends them to her agent, Kelton gets marketing advice from author Emily Halnon about bolstering her memoir proposal, and they both reflect on the importance of engaging with writers you admire as peers, not pedestals.
Learn more about Chelsea Hodson, sign up for the Morning Writing Club and listen to her single here: https://chelseahodson.com/
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Hi, Kelton. I am in Scottsdale, Arizona Paradise Valley. I'm pretty sure I got two speeding tickets back to back this weekend.
Kelton:did you I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.
Krisserin:I'm so stupid. Okay. I was driving down this little street just. Now listening to music do, do not even paying attention. I don't even know how fast I was going. Not fast. I was probably going like 35 to 45 miles car and all of a sudden flash, he and I freaked out about it and it was like next to school, but it was 6:00 PM and I didn't, I was not paying attention. It was in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Empty streets, long thoroughfare. And then I did it again the next day. Same exact spot.
Kelton:kidding the same police officer
Krisserin:It's a camera
Kelton:Oh a camera. Uhhuh
Krisserin:I'm so mad at myself about it. I'm so mad at myself about it. And I called my husband the second time that happened and he's like, you're an adult. I don't know what to say to you. Other than that, it's beautiful here. It feels like the desert town I grew up in, if we had a lot of money, that's what it feels like. It's, the architecture is really interesting. These big, long, sprawling houses and the front yards are filled with all of these different types of cacti and Palo Verde trees. Other trees that I was like, Kelton would be mad at me for not knowing the names of these trees, other beautiful trees. And I went on a walk yesterday and was just looking at all the beautiful houses and the hills in the background and it's really nice here. I can see why people would wanna move to Arizona, or at least be snowbirds in Arizona. It's nice here.
Kelton:I have spent some time in Arizona My grandma spent the last probably 10 years of her life living in Phoenix and I gotta say the Phoenix Music Museum one of museums
Krisserin:I came here for my birthday weekend. I spent it in Sedona. It was super magical. I got to interview Chelsea Hodson. We're going to actually play during this episode. You guys will get to listen to her speak. She's effortlessly cool. And, yeah. How, how's your week going?
Kelton:Been good I had to think about it for just a flash of a second And I was like what day is it How am I How are things going they're they're going good I have been fastidiously working on my memoir promised turns out has some of the same issues with uh as fiction in that like as I've been putting together chapters two and three for sample chapters I'm wondering if those are in right place book it's not telling a story linear in linear fashion and so I can kind of choose what goes where and and Proving be challenge um my book my memoir as I'm imagining introduction and then five parts and there'll be about like three chapters in each part that to core concept of that section and trying to figure like what goes first and what lands where You haven't written the whole thing So I'm trying to release myself from the pressure of knowing that and be like listen just need three banging chapters and then you and your agent your future editor can all figure out what order they go in You don't need worry about that right now Just make it the three best chapters possible So I'm trying that out me Listeners I have four days get this proposal to Krisserin on time and that very important to me So I'm trying to wrap that Chapter one is sick very happy with chapters two and three are like this There's like nine chapters are like morphing two So am on track sort of it might might mean that skip writing an essay this weekend the newsletter but we shall see
Krisserin:You just bring back a, a previously published banger as a, like a reprint for the weekend. I was gonna say, I know I, I, I went through a similar struggle with my Gustafson novel because there's all these flashbacks. It's like, okay, well, do I want this flashback at the beginning? Do I want it? Like, where should I put these things? But yeah, I was. Going to say you just need your three best, most impressive chapters for your proposal. So, but I know it's easy to get hung up on wanting to have it straight in your head because for me, that helps me, right? If I have it kind of like I know what I'm doing, but.
Kelton:wanna give away the the wrong details and the wrong piece you know like you said get it done so I can start sending it out and making this beautiful list of agents
Krisserin:So exciting. Well, you had a good productive week though.
Kelton:Yeah I think so Yeah like thinking back so. I also spent some time this out was like gotta rest I could feel myself where was I a little just life and gotta step back Just take a second productive today It's funny that day that I'm describing not doing anything productive was actually a race in it's our annual hill climb where you walk from the top pass I think it's like Maybe 1500 feet elevation gain in like a mile and a half or something that And you can do it on foot on bike or horseback so I well I'll do it on foot baby And had friends who were gonna who's recovering from an injury one pregnant And they both bailed And so they were they they were gonna me in line instead I was well gonna go as fast doing it alone I went hard I was like this is my recovery day Uh
Krisserin:gosh.
Kelton:a Capricorn always a Capricorn
Krisserin:You know what? I have my best friend from college who I pole vaulted with at UCLA is also a Capricorn, and you are just like her. She's so exactly down to the like, oh, you, oh, you don't think I can do, you're telling me I can't do this. Watch me. Oh, it's supposed to be easy. I'm gonna go balls to the wall. Like she and you are so similar. Um, so you say things and I'm like, yeah, very predictable.
Kelton:going too hard when I hear in backpack start just in the backpack going I'm like oh but that was my relaxing helping host and to that race uh out at a playground for dreamy.
Krisserin:Imagine your town like a up in the mountains, stars hollow. That's kind of what I'm picturing like at the town hall meetings with Taylor Doey and like all the fun little festivals
Kelton:are exactly
Krisserin:really.
Kelton:I saw Gilmore Girls cause I I only started like two years ago. Um and watching town meetings I was exactly it's like There's one person stands up and says the shut up Um but very charming
Krisserin:So you're gonna write the Modern Day Gilmore Girls, but set in a small town in Colorado, I feel like that would do really well. You should do that.
Kelton:I actually do really wanna I have I do I do have um a like very rough draft like a modern northern exposure so you um know when memoir and everything else I'm working gonna pitch
Krisserin:I am obsessed. You know, we talked a little, and I'll tell you about how my writing week went in a minute, but we talked a little bit about this before, like writing with place in mind, and I just started reading Leslie Bannatyne's Lake song, which, oh my god. We talked about confidence last week. It makes me feel so bad about myself because she's such a beautiful writer. I'm like reading these sentences and I was like, I should just throw in a towel because I can't, I will never be able to write as beautifully as this. But it's set in a, around a specific, I think made up name of a lake in the Lake district in New York, and the Finger Lakes. Anyhow, we'll be talking, to Leslie Bannatyne about place. But, my week, last week, I, I think I told you I finished editing, my, first draft of my, or not my first draft. I, I finished revising my draft of my book, and then when I got here. To Scottsdale. I spent all day yesterday reading aloud the first six chapters of the second book and revising them. And, because I'm in this Airbnb by myself, I didn't feel weird or awkward just reading it out loud. And so I, finished that and then I sent it yesterday to my agent. I was like, here you go. Here's the as promised, revised draft of the first book and the first 67 pages of the second book, and she wrote me back this morning. She's like, great, we'll still meet on December 1st. She's like, I don't have time to do this right now. No, she didn't say that, but she basically was like, we're still going to, because I was like, what our next steps? And she was like, we are still gonna follow the original schedule that I mapped out. It's like, okay. She's like, if
Kelton:her boundaries
Krisserin:she's so good with boundaries, she's really good with, and I'm really good at respecting them, so I'm like. That's fine.
Kelton:You I, I.
Krisserin:I, I captain. So I have the, I have 190 pages of that second book, written and I guess I'll just keep going, but my week went well. I, I got to go spend the weekend in Sedona with my friends from college and then I've been here getting speeding tickets in Scottsdale, so it's been great.
Kelton:that's spectacular I love it Just on a an alternate reality confidence I have been one corner of I have office because still full of previous owner's books He left the mall he this christmas So I feel now I can I can go through them and relinquish them them as and are there some there are there's like six books out of 40 that I decided keep but were also a books where I was look published. is no reason to get published there is a bunch there
Krisserin:Oh yeah,
Kelton:part of it
Krisserin:I.
Kelton:So totally. So now but now two huge open shelves I'm ready to pack em in with the people we're Krisserin but I'm like dying to know Chelsea Hodson this week
Krisserin:I did.
Kelton:tell everything Tell me everything Tell them everything
Krisserin:Well, Chelsea, I know because she is also a fellow, PEN Emerging Voices alumni, alum, alumnus, alumna. I think she was the year before me. And, I remember just thinking she was already so cool. You know, she's beautiful and she's got this beautiful long, dark hair and she's got this very moody vibe. But then when you talk to her, she's the nicest human being on the planet. So I. Knew I was going to Sedona and she lives in Sedona full time. She moved there a couple of years ago from Brooklyn and I think she originally is from Arizona or like went to school in Arizona. So she went back to the middle of the desert and we had a really great conversation. She has published, uh, essay collection called Tonight, I'm Someone Else. And she's also, she has her own independent press called Rose Books, which I did actually the listeners of the first season, I interviewed her briefly during AWP about independent publishing and why that is a good route for some people. But, um, she runs that. She does a lot. She, this woman is busy, so she is the publisher of Rose Books, the founder of the Morning Writing Club, which started as a way to kind of like what we're doing, but she, every morning from 5:00 AM to 7:00 AM would log onto Zoom with a group of people and they would just write for a really long time. And now I think they meet less frequently. But that group, which if you are looking for community. A great community, the morning writing club, because they have classes and they have agents come and talk to the people in the group and other writers and, workshops. So real sense of community over there. And then she recently debuted as her first single, so she's also a musician and it's,
Kelton:already salivating
Krisserin:it's a beautiful single. We're gonna play it at the end of our interview with her. But yeah, she has a really interesting path to publication and so I wanted to chat with her about how she created this incredible writing career and became a mentor to all these people. So, we're going to start that interview now. I hope you guys enjoy it. Hi Chelsea. Hi. Good to see you. It's so good to see you. I can't believe we're in Sedona. I know. I
Chelsea:get very little visitors out here. It's like just far enough out of the way that not a lot of people come here. So I was excited. You said
Speaker 3:you were gonna come. They're lost.'cause it is, I mean, the camera can't see it. The listeners can't hear it. But look at that. I know. It's so beautiful here. It's crazy. It's magical here. I know. And I saw a falling star last night. Yeah.
Chelsea:Because it's a dark sky. Yeah. Community. So that means there's like all these laws, you can't have lights that are too bright
Speaker 3:even on the
Chelsea:streets.
Krisserin:Oh, it's amazing. I, I'm so envious that you get to live in such a beautiful place and call it home. Yeah.
Chelsea:And
Speaker 3:how long have you been here? Almost
Chelsea:four years. Wow.
Speaker 3:From
Chelsea:Brooklyn? Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in Phoenix. I grew up two and a half hours from here, and I went to school in Tucson. Okay. So I'm like very Arizona based. Okay. But I've never lived up here until I moved here.
Krisserin:So you're a desert, girly. Yeah. You're a desert in my heart. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So I grew up in the desert. Which desert? Do that in the Mojave Desert in California. Oh, cool. Awesome. No, I didn't know that. Yeah. So
Chelsea:you feel at home here too? Oh yeah. Yeah. I forgot how dry
Speaker 3:it's though. Yeah. Yeah, a little bit of reasoning happening while I'm here, but I'm really enjoying it and I'm so happy that we could find time to sit down and chat. Yes. Thank you for inviting me. You're the first interview of the podcast, so there we go. Here I'm, yeah, I'm honored. I've known you for a while now and I've known you as, you know, Chelsea Hodson, the published essays publisher of Rose Books, but I don't know your story of how you started writing and Yeah. When you started taking writing seriously. So I'd love to hear your origin story as a writer.
Chelsea:Yeah, thanks. it's so cool that we're both from the PEN USA Emerging Voices program.'cause that was a really kind of important step for me. I think like early on in, I think it was like high school, I wasn't one of those kids who was always writing and reading even I was really into music. Mm-hmm. And like really into the punk scene and, going to shows and stuff. But I, I was into newspaper and journalism and I come from two parents who are very supportive, but very much like, you should find a job that's steady, not like, do whatever you want. Like, be creative. They always embrace, they, they were like interested in art and music and film and introduced me to a lot, but it was very much like you should probably find a major and go to college that, you know, makes sense, uh, realistically for your adult life. Mm-hmm. And so I thought, well, maybe if I wrote for newspaper, that would be good. And even once I got to college and like the early two thousands, all my professors were like. Look you guys like, this is dead, like, don't do it. There's
Speaker 3:some foresight because I feel
Chelsea:like newspapers were still alive in the early two thousands. They were, but like the writing was on the wall. So even my professors at the time were kind of like, look you guys. Um, and I, uh, you know, I had to have a minor at the college I went to and I minored in poetry. Um, to be like, well, maybe I can, you know, do some creative writing on the side. It would never occur to me to major in English or major in creative writing. I just thought that's crazy. Why would you do that? I didn't really understand the academic system even of maybe I could teach if I did that, but I didn't know that I wanted to teach. So I was very kind of happy in journalism, not really knowing what was gonna happen next, but I liked the education of it. I liked, um people teaching me how to be concise. Mm-hmm. You know, that was like a huge part of journalism. I feel like I've carried that. I became a good copy editor of myself, so I learned a lot of skills that I do still use, even though I didn't become a journalist. But what I really liked was, things like this American life and journalism that was kind of self-centered in a way. Mm-hmm. Where it was like, here's my experience in this thing that I'm reporting on. And so I started reading and listening to a lot. Things like that, essayists. I started writing poetry and I had a really great poetry teacher that kind of encouraged me. She had office hours and. In my mind, I was like, oh, well I'll go and, you know, work with, work on my poetry with her. And I realized no one else was doing that. So I would show up to this cafe where she was having her office hours and she would just work with me. Oh my God. And that was, the first time that anyone encouraged my poetry or in creative writing. And I think she was just a couple years older than me and I just thought she was so cool. And I was like, wow, well poetry's awesome. And so that kind of set me on a path. And when I graduated, I moved to New York without a real plan. Mm-hmm. So I moved from Tucson to New York thinking, I guess that's where artists go. Think I got that idea from, TV or something. I really liked that show. Felicity. Yeah. Yes. Like I sometimes I'm like, I typically ended up in New York because of Felicity on a subconscious level. It like planted as. Seed. And I was like, well, that's where you go if you're like looking for adventure and longing and love. And you didn't cut off all your hair, did you? No, I didn't cut off my hair, but I also didn't start with hair like that, so Yeah. Um, but so I ended up in New York and, um, I was just working a bunch of part-time jobs. And then, I pursued, a mentorship with Sarah Manguso actually. Oh
Krisserin:wow.
Chelsea:Sarah ended up writing my letter of recommendation for the PEN Center emerging Voices program and so she was very supportive of me early on of trying to find my way and she was the first person that said, I think you're leaning actually to writing essays. And I thought. Oh, I've never done that. I was like reading a lot of it, but I thought, well, I'm working with poetry. I'll just do that. And it, as she described it, some of my poetry was leaning towards essays, maybe you're more of an essayist. And so she was the first person that told me like, maybe you're writing an essay collection. I thought, oh, maybe I am, you know, and so in my teaching and coaching now with people, I try to. Give them ideas sometimes like that where I'm like, maybe you could do this. Because that was really instrumental to me and I think it didn't seem like a big deal probably to Sarah at the time. Mm-hmm. But, to me it's like all I needed was someone to tell me, maybe you're trying to do this. Like, does that seem right? I'm like, yeah, maybe I am. Like maybe I could do that. So I didn't grow up really with any sort of like connections or knowing many writers at all. And I think just step by step, I made my way into a community of writers or like cities where other writers lived. Mm-hmm. Because I went from New York to LA back to New York, and, um, I think just step by step, I got closer to my dream, which was having a book. Mm-hmm. So it really was like several years of trial and error trying to figure out what my voice as an essayist and poet was. Um, trying to put a book together. So. I think like after several years I thought, well, I think maybe an MFA would help me. So it was something I was always kind of against because I have like a punk background and I just thought like, I don't need to go back to school or something. And so, but after a while I thought, well, my mentorship with Sarah was so helpful. Maybe if I'm in a program, it will help me get to that last, that last step. And I'd been working on the essays for several years that by the time I went. It was like I was ready. So I did ultimately finish my essay collection, at Bennington, which is where I ended up going.
Krisserin:That's incredible. First of all. I feel like office hours are such an underutilized thing. I know if my God willing my kids go to college, I'm like, go talk to your professors. Yeah. Go get them in their offices. Because I had, similarly, I had, formed really good relationships with some of my professors mm-hmm. Because I went and bugged them.
Chelsea:Yeah. And this was actually a, this was actually a grad student, so I had like a professor of poetry, you know, that I was in a bigger class. And then you'd section off and do these smaller poetry workshops. Yeah. It just never occurred to me until years later that like, I might be bothering her or like imposing, but she, I don't think I was like, I think she was excited to work with someone that's excited and being a teacher. Now I know what that's like, where it's like when someone is. Invigorated by the things that you're saying and discussing with them. It's really gratifying. So I think that she enjoyed it too. But yeah, it never occurred to me that I might be imposing by like sitting with her for two hours every Monday or whatever. Oh my gosh. And it, it really, really helped me. And then how did you find the mentorship with Sarah? So I honestly just loved her work and I emailed her. So I was actually working as a personal assistant at the time for other people. And I offered to do personal assistant work for her in exchange for editing, and she said yes. Wow, that's incredible. This was like. 12 years ago. So this is like after I think she had published the two kinds of decay.
Krisserin:Mm-hmm.
Chelsea:But I think that was it. She had published The Guardians, like after we worked together. So, it was kind of early in her like being known as an essays too. Yeah. And a prose writer. But I loved her poetry. I was obsessed with it.
Krisserin:Yeah. It's so funny. I think that the idea of emailing or reaching out to one of your favorite writers is such a terrifying, I think, concept to a lot of people. Yeah. But I did it recently. I emailed an author that whose books my mother and I were reading together and we really liked and I was like, my mom and I really liked your books and she wrote me back. Yeah. She was like, oh my God. Thank you so much. Yeah. Actually writers wanna hear from their readers, and we shouldn't be afraid to reach out to people.
Chelsea:I, um, I was afraid, and I had a friend at the time that I was telling this to, I was like, I just have this sense that I need more education, but I don't know if an MFA is right for me, but I could tell. Um, it's that, I don't know if you've heard that Ira glass quote of the disparity between your taste and your skill. Mm. Like I could tell that what I was writing wasn't up to what I really wanted to be reading. Yeah. And I just, I was like, I just need someone to kind of tell me what I'm doing wrong. So I was very open about the fact that I wasn't ready to publish a book, for instance, but I really wanted to get better. So I had that hunger.
Krisserin:Yeah.
Chelsea:And so I told my friend who was a successful photographer and like, wasn't afraid of this kind of stuff, and I said I'm thinking about asking this writer I just love. But you know, I don't wanna bother her. You know, like it's, it's kind of a crazy ask. And he said The worst thing she can do is say no or not respond. Or just not respond. He goes, is that that bad? You are right? Like it's not that bad. If she says no, I would actually totally understand it, but if she says yes, and so yeah, that was a really good lesson for me because sometimes like you do have to ask. Um, yeah, and this is something I encourage a lot of my students to do, where I'm like, if there's a writer you really wanna work with, maybe this kind of setup wouldn't be for them of being their personal assistant or something, because it took a lot of trust on Sarah's part. Mm-hmm. But, um. My advice to other people is often just to ask what their editorial rates are. I'm like, if you have a draft of your book and you want your favorite writer to edit it, you know, like ask them what it would be.
Krisserin:The worst thing that could happen is you say yes and then they're a horrible person and then your hero just like, yes, that's true. That's true. That's happened to me where I met my hero and I was like,
Chelsea:wow, I hate you now. And I also remind people that just because they're your favorite writer, it doesn't mean that they're gonna be a good teacher editor for you. No. So, but I did really luck out where Sarah was like really instrumental for me.
Krisserin:Something that you just said really fascinates me'cause I've been thinking about it a lot myself, where, you know, you sometimes when you're doing an exercise, just to use an analogy, you could be doing things the wrong way. Yeah. And you could just completely repeat over and over the, the wrong technique or um, not see any improvement. So I've been feeling that a lot myself because I was talking about wanting to get an MFA and I, they're like, why? Like if you're gonna publish, why do you need an mfa? And it's because I'm trying to understand like.
Speaker 3:How do you become a better writer? Because I was thinking about it. I've been writing now for so long. Yeah. And I just picked up a book by another author that we're gonna interview and I was reading and I was like fuck. Yeah. This is, I could never write like this. Yeah. And it's very humbling. Yeah. And I'm thinking to myself, how do I, besides reading a lot mm-hmm. How do I become a better writer?
Chelsea:It's such a good question. And it's like, it, it might be, it might seem so obvious, but I think like it, you're a good writer, you're always asking that. Yeah. Like,'cause I'm writing a novel now after writing essays and I feel like I'm new again. So it's like I don't really totally feel like writing one book even helped me write the next one. So like, no, always still learning. I think that's good. Yeah. I think it's good that I change and evolve and that I don't write just another book of essays about the same topics. Yeah. What's the point in that? I wanna be always learning and being present and evolving. I think like that means that you don't always know what you're doing.
Krisserin:Yeah.
Chelsea:But, um, I think for me it's become really instinctual and intuitive where when I write something, even in fiction versus nonfiction, it's like I can feel that it's real. I can feel that it's authentically me mm-hmm. In some way. And that I wrote it in a way that. Possibly no one else could write it that way. You know, where it's like, maybe that's not totally true, but that's the feeling I get. And a lot of that for me comes from reading aloud. So it's like over time being able to edit myself and being edited by other people, I can tell, I can hear it out loud, like, that's good. Mm-hmm. Or that's a good first sentence, or That's a good last sentence. Mm-hmm. So I think it like, it's almost beyond teaching. It's like spending enough time with your work that you can identify things like that. And they feel okay. Because I used to just think like, well, when will something ever be done? I don't, I don't know. I could always make it better. Yeah. And now I have this sense of like, eh, it's like it's done. That is what I set out to do with this story or this chapter. How do you read your work aloud?
Speaker 3:What's, what does that look like? What does that sound like?
Chelsea:I have different modes where sometimes, the constraint for myself in editing is reading a chapter all the way through and I'm not allowed to stop. And then oftentimes it's, I'll read it to kind of do. Almost like an energy read where I'm like, okay, it's lost the energy here, and I don't really know why, but when I read it aloud, I'm tuning out. It doesn't sound good. Something needs to change there. And then I kind of know how to go in and make it better.
Speaker 3:Hmm. Do you feel like the MFA helps you become a better writer? It's a good
Chelsea:question. I think that ultimately, yes, because it provided a really intense, um. Framing in which to interrogate my work for better or for worse. So when I, when people ask me if like they think that they should get an MFA, I really ask them where they're at in their writing because I think it can be harmful for a lot of people. If people go too early. Without really doing that work of being alone with your work, having some sense of what your writing habits are, workshopping and maybe a lower stakes environment of a one-off Zoom workshop or something. Like if you go in totally fresh, not having really thought about what kind of writing you want to do. I think it's really disorienting for some people. Hmm. And I saw that in my program room. People came straight out of their undergrad, straight into Bennington thinking like that's what they should do if they wanna be a writer. And that doesn't work for everyone. I had workshops where my writing was totally torn apart. I had an instructor to say, you know what? I think like with this piece, I would honestly just throw it away. Start again. I'm like, what kind of advice is that? It's totally. Totally disorienting. And I, I, I cried after that. I was thinking like, what am I doing? I cried
Speaker 3:after a
Chelsea:workshop too, you know, and this is like three terms in. And I'm like, am I crazy? You know, like it starts to kind of like make you doubt it. If you are traditionally a good student and you like, feel like you're following your intuition, you're being creative, you're doing what you wanna do, and then a teacher who traditionally is the person who tells you if it's good or bad tells you it's. Bad. It's upsetting. It's like maybe deep down you're a people pleaser, which I think I've had to work on. But, that was a workshop I had, or then I had six months to work with this teacher who like, obviously hated my work. Like he didn't say hate, but like he almost could not engage with it. And, um. In the act of kind of defending my work and maybe experimenting with meeting him in the middle and realizing that wasn't working either. It actually did help me. So it's like in some ways that helped me just as much or more than the teacher or teachers that were like, oh yeah, I love it. Keep going. That was encouraging and helpful, but having to be in a situation where I'm like, is he right? You know, like is there a shred of truth to what he's saying? Because I am writing kind of obliquely, like maybe there's parts where I could clarify it, I do see what he was saying. But ultimately, as a writer, I think you have to sometimes double down on the things that people are telling you they don't like, because often that is what's making your writing different from anyone else's. Mm-hmm. And sometimes you run into a teacher that you have to work with for six months, where they just don't get it. And so I wasn't in the position of thinking, he's wrong. I'm right. Mm-hmm. But it did kind of put me in a crisis of confidence. Mm-hmm. Being like, should I be doing more of what he's saying? Yeah. Or like, what, what do I want to do? And so I think that put me in a space of thinking deeply in a way that maybe I wasn't before. So I think that experience was really helpful for me. He told me that you couldn't write an essay in a dream, which I thought was like really interesting, hard and fast rule. And I was like, watch me. You know, we just had this tension of like, I'm like, well see you get next month. You know, in some ways it did make me more confident'cause I was like, I'm gonna do exactly what he says I can't do. So I think putting yourself in that situation at the right time in your writing is good, but. If I had had that kind of interaction early, early on, you know, I'm like maybe five or six years into working on essays at this point when I went to get my MFA, that's a much different situation than year one.
Krisserin:Well, one of the things I wanted to ask you is if you've ever had rejection that really, stopped you in your tracks with writing? Because I feel like Yeah, that happens where you just get soul crushed. Yes. Maybe I'm not a writer. Maybe. I think
Chelsea:yes. And talking about where you're at in your writing, this experience I was just talking about with my MFA was years in, very early on, I'd say this was maybe like, maybe year one of writing essays, a couple years into poetry. when you did Emerging Voices, you had guests all the time, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So we had a guest come in that was an editor and, he had asked to read like at least a couple pages of everyone's work before coming. But I didn't realize he was going to like live critique it. I don't know that anyone else really understood that that's what was happening. I would say that's ultimately a valuable experience if he's like, being thoughtful about it, right? So he went around the room and was giving people advice that, um, you know, like seemed fine and he got to mine and I had turned in. Something that had actually been published, an essay about, two girls, you know, me and another girl at a beach camp. This is a version of this, ended up in my book too. It was called Beach Camp. And it was just about events that transpired at camp and kind of the mystique around it and all these things. And he comes to me and he goes, girls always write about camp. He goes, what is that? And you know, I'm in front of my peers and my cohort I'm in front of, you know, um, Libby who was running the program. And it was really embarrassing where I'm like, you know, it kind of put me in this position of this editor is above me. He must know more than me. If he's an editor of this journal and, he is essentially confirming my worst fear, which is that the female experience is trivial and not interesting. Oh. Because it wa you know, it is that kind of essay where it's like coming of age, adolescent girls maybe having feelings for each other, things like that. And it's not the type of essay that's like, what is life, what is death? You know, it's like you could argue that it's trivial. And so by him saying that, it kind of confirmed my worst fears, which is that to be an essayist, I should be more serious about the topics I'm writing about and my life isn't serious enough. And again, similar to this teacher that I was describing, I think it just forced me to go to ask those questions of myself in a serious way of like ultimately deciding I wanna double down and prove him wrong. That's the kind of stuff I like to read. So even if that's his response, ultimately I'm still gonna do my thing, you know? And so it's like I could have trashed that essay and instead. I revised it, I worked on it and published it in the book years later because I had kind of worked through that fear. But that was like kind of in, that was kind of crushing to me and that's something that really stands out in my mind. A moment where your worst fears you feel like are confirmed and you think what am I gonna do? Because that's a moment where I think some people really could quit. Yeah. Like that kind of that kind of just reductive feedback. Like he didn't talk about any of the writing or anything. It was just like the topic seemed stupid to him. Mm-hmm. Um. And, uh, I think that, that ultimately, once you get to the other side and you decide you're not quitting, it does make you stronger. I'm grateful for those experiences ultimately because it, it did toughen me up. Yeah. And now. If I read a Good Reads review or someone says something like that, I'm like, oh, well that's their experience. Yeah. Like it doesn't phase me at all. Oh, I hate that man. Yeah, we can name him up. I wanna know how it's not, because it's like ultimately it's not me trying to go against him or anything. It's just it was just one of those experiences where to him that didn't seem like a big deal, and to me that was already my worst fear. Yeah.
Krisserin:So, you know, I mean, I guess. What it makes you do is take a step back and really examine the thing that you're doing. Yes. And ultimately the work becomes stronger because of it. Yeah. But I don't think, I think a lot of people in this space either are trying to gate, keep publishing and trying to gate, keep the path to towards becoming a writer by actually turning people away from it. Yeah. Like these types of critiques or whatever it may be. Yeah. Which is unfortunate or, and they're human, right? They come to whatever they're doing with their own insecurities that they then project onto you or whatever it may be, you know? Yeah. That if you were a man writing a story about two boys at camp, it's like when you had the same respect, oh, I don't, this is amazing. Yeah. The ho eroticism is just chef's kiss. Totally. Um, which is so unfortunate, but. Why is it always the men?
Chelsea:I dunno. I dunno that it's always the men, but that has been my experience of, um, I don't know. You know, and my favorite writers were writers like Maggie Nelson, Sarah Manguso and things like that, where I felt like they were exploring something that I hadn't seen explored before. So ultimately when I would receive critiques where it was like, what are you doing? I don't really get it. I would just kind of go back to rereading, which was like a big thing that I do, rereading my favorite books and being like. Well, they wouldn't think of it that way. Yeah. You know, like even if I'm not getting Maggie Nelson's take on it, I know that she wouldn't agree with what he said and ultimately I like her writing. So you know, you can see I just kind of like build the confidence back up. Yeah. So I think that that's an important skill to have and to I. Be in the practice as a writer of hearing, um, critiques that aren't, you know, I love it. Or more and more, you know, it's like, um, I don't get this, it doesn't resonate with me, therefore it's bad. It's like you do have to, kinda weather yourself to that kind of feedback.
Krisserin:Yeah.
Chelsea:Because I've had friends that like, maybe don't get that feedback, then publish a book and their good reads page drives them insane. Yeah. Yeah. You do want that. So it's like you, I always tell writers, like when they have a bad workshop experience, I'm like, it's ultimately helping you. Yeah. So that you can, yeah. Be okay. Yeah. In the publication process.
Krisserin:Yeah. And my advice is always remembering that the people who are reading your work might not be your readers, but they could offer you something that you didn't think about. Yes. You know? Totally. That will make the work stronger. A good teacher though, should be able to say like, I might not be the reader for this. Yeah. But I can see the merit in this. That and the other thing, and maybe here you could make this better by doing this. Yeah. Or like
Chelsea:what, or like, my experience is I got totally lost here. Yeah. You know, rather than being like, scrap it. So again, so I, again, it's like I think I'm the type of personality maybe where I, I with time, you know, maybe not right away, but with time I'm able to take whatever might be a negative experience and just be like, okay, actually that makes me a better teacher.'cause I know what it's like to receive feedback that is not helpful. So how would that have been helpful for me? Okay. Now I'll approach that when I read a student's work that's not resonating with me.
Krisserin:Mm-hmm.
Chelsea:I'm not like, you should probably just start over.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I try and touch my feedback in this is how I receive this. Yeah. Is that your intention? Right. Did you want me to feel this way when I read this part of your work? Yeah, totally. Yeah. So how did you find your agent? Tell us that
Chelsea:story. It's kind of a wild story. I'll, I'll tell the short version of it, but ultimately, when I was trying to write essays and, work on my poetry and I was in New York, I was trying to come up with a writing habit, a writing ritual, because I'm such a perfectionist that there would be many days in a row where I'd be like, well, I don't feel like it's the perfect time to write. Hmm. So, um, I won't write. And I could feel that that was not right. And I thought, well, what if I, what if I made myself right every day, and had some sort of constraint. So I had a Tumblr at the time. This was, uh, 20 Blr 2012. I think I started at 2013. Yeah, me too. Whenever I tell this to my, like zoomer students down, like you guys might not know, but there's a site called Tumblr. Um. But I had a Tumblr and I started a project called Inventory, which, cataloged every single object I owned. And I would take a photo of myself with the object and then I would write one paragraph maybe related to the object, maybe not at all. So it was just like, I love that sometimes it would be directly about this thing I owned and sometimes it would just be this kind of abstract relationship with it. But it was just like four sentences. And I made myself do it every day and, uh, and publish it every day. Mm-hmm. So that was, it was almost like exposure therapy for myself because I realized I was so terrified of publishing that I maybe needed to do a little every day, like not wait for these gatekeepers and these editors to say yes. Because it took about two years of rejection to get my first essay published. Like I had a really hard time finding the right kind of journal that was into the type of essay I was doing, which was somewhat experimental, somewhat oblique, you know, I think like it's become more common now, but at the time there were certain journals that just weren't open to any sort of lyricism in essays, and so I had a hard time like finding the right journals, which was its own process. But with my Tumblr, I could just do it every day. So I started with seriously 10 followers by doing this every single day, which is something these like TikTok influencers, right? And other people talk about now where it's like post every day. Mm-hmm. Um, this was my first kind of foray into that and tumblr featured me at one point. I ended up with like 20,000 followers following this girl, taking a photo, a selfie of herself with an object and a paragraph each day. And that was pretty, it was like a year into the project. So I went most of it, you know, without, um, without much readership. Then it started really kind of picking up traction for Tumblr. That was like a big deal. And, I did the project for two years and maybe about a year into that, like shortly after being featured, a writer, named Jacob Silverman showed the blog to his agent at the time. And, she reached out to me and asked if I was writing a book. So that's kind of like the dream, right? You're like, oh, I got a, you know, email from a New York agent. I knew that my book wasn't ready, but I was working on the essays. So we met and she had read what I had written and said, it seems maybe a little young to me, but I think you have a lot of potential. Let's kinda keep in touch. Mm-hmm. You know? How old were you at the time? So how old was I? I think it was like 26, 27. And, so that made me really trust her because I thought if she comes, like with a contract or something, you know, I was like, so new to this. I was like, I'm not really gonna trust her if she thinks this is good. I know that it's not good yet. Like I said, I, I was actively pursuing, making the writing good, but. I liked that she was kind of in the same mindset that I was, where it's, it's not all the way good and it's not ready to sell, but maybe it could be someday. Let's keep in touch. So shortly after that, I went to Bennington to get my MFA, and we were in touch the whole time. She would come to my readings in New York, we were in touch. She would read stuff. She signed me. And when the week before my book was done to, to turn into her, she quit publishing. She come on, she had some sort of life event. She was a new agent. She was decided like, this isn't for me ultimately. I'm so glad Yeah. That, that happened because you don't want someone who's like on their way out of publishing, selling your book. Yeah, for sure. So. But I was devastated, you know, we were friends at that point. We had a great working relationship. I thought we're gonna be paired up together forever. She's my cheerleader and it just didn't work. And she said, you know, this agent at the same agency is talking to a lot of my clients to take'em on. Okay, good. Yeah. That is Monika Woods, who is now my agent and started Triangle House literary. So she was a younger agent at the time and I think had a dream of having her own agency. But that happened I think after we sold my book. So I just immediately went with her being like, I guess this is what I'm doing. Yeah. You know, not totally familiar with if we'd be a good fit or not. Just kind of trusting that that was probably the best option for me, rather than to start querying or. Look elsewhere. She wanted to work with me, so I thought, let's do it. Let's try it out. And so she sold my book, I think six months after that. But it was so wild having this years long relationship with one agent, feeling like, that's your agent. You've got it. You know, like you don't have to worry about it. Yeah. And having that upended the week that I was really like, okay, I'm sending you the manuscript. She was like, I can't do it. Like I'm not doing this anymore. It was so scary. Oh, I'm sure. Because you think like it's, it's over for me. Like that's it.
Krisserin:Start from scratch and start all over again. Yeah. But
Chelsea:really it could have been over for me if she tried to sell the book and failed because she wasn't interested in being an agent or something. Your agent holds a lot of power if you're publishing at a certain, you know, at a certain tier with certain publishers. Like the agent is really crucial.
Speaker 3:You had this book of essays, you had this manuscript, did you work on them with Monica and then work on them again what was that process like?
Chelsea:I had completed most of the manuscript, at Bennington, so I had drafts of most of the essays, but I worked on them and worked on them and had I think like 70% of the essays. That's the version of the book that sold understanding that the editor would then work with me to complete the book. Okay.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Chelsea:Um, so Monika did read them, but I wouldn't say I, we worked on them and worked on them. Okay. She did like the final read, gave me really helpful feedback. And then my editor at Henry Holt, was a poet. So she was like a published poet herself, Libby Burton. And, um, really got what I was doing and I felt like I was in really good hands with her and she helped me, she helped prompt me for some of the final essays. Amazing. She would do things like say, well, I see that you wrote about money in this essay. Like, what if you wrote totally about money here? You know? And so I'd be like, okay, got it.
Krisserin:You know, and I just hit the ground running, so That's so nice. Wow. To have a partner that way must be incredible. From what I'm hearing. That's rarer and rarer. Yeah. Yeah. What does your ri, because your life is very full now Yes. With a lot of stuff. Um, what does your writing ritual and routine look like? Now? You said you're working
Chelsea:on a novel? Yes, I'm working on a novel. My morning writing club used to meet for two hours. Every weekday morning, Monday through Friday. So we would take the weekends off, but we used to meet five to 7:00 AM Pacific time. Mm-hmm. Um, and so a lot of people were eastern time working eight to 10. Mm-hmm. Which worked better for them. Mm-hmm. But my writing routine used to really be five to seven every weekday. And that really, really worked for me in a way where, again, I was using. The Zoom accountability group to help make sure I showed up every day. Mm-hmm. Because I realized that sometimes I wouldn't show up for my own writing the way I would show up for other people. Mm-hmm. So if I'm teaching or coaching someone, I will never cancel. Like, I'll like suck it up, whatever is going on, I will be there and not let that person down. But I found, I was letting myself down because I was kind of afraid of not being able to write this book or writing in a new genre. And so I started the morning writing club to actually help myself and it started helping other people. And so that became a really great community. Then I got pregnant and I had third trimester, like crazy insomnia. Oh, okay. And so I would be waking up at 2:00 AM be ready to fall asleep at 5:00 AM hosting morning writing club. It was like really a slog. Yeah. I kept it, I kept it going. I had an assistant that helped me when I gave birth and when I wasn't able to do that in the first couple months, like she would help me. Uh, now and then I was still kind of showing up for it. Even if I wasn't writing, I would help kind of host it. But, um, I think about three years into morning writing club. So three years of doing that every weekday, maybe I would say a total of maybe four months off. I did it every single day. Wow. So my assistant helped, like I was there for the most of it. Um, just having a new baby, I was like, you know what, it has to change. And I was looking at the numbers and the membership was increasing, but I do all these other events, like classes and author talks and stuff, and I realized that most people were joining for that. Not really the morning group. So. Was actually coming down to, the membership was so large that about 5% was showing up to the morning sessions that I no longer was using. Mm-hmm. And so I took a big risk and said, we're actually gonna do them the first week of each month.
Krisserin:Mm-hmm. That's
Chelsea:it. We're doing a ton of other events. So now I teach, uh, generative workshop. I do all this other stuff mm-hmm. To make it useful for everyone, but it's no longer every single weekday. Because my writing is so different, my writing time. Mm-hmm. So, uh, as you know, you know, having kids just kind of, there's all these phases that they go through Yeah. And their sleep changes so much. Yep. So my daughter is almost two now, and I feel like we're getting a rhythm, but, sometimes, this is most of the time now, I will actually write before she gets up, I will sometimes go to bed, by 8:00 PM Yeah. And wake up at. Two 30 or three 30 to write before she wakes up because she's an early riser because I so miss that early morning time. That's magical. So my husband is super, super helpful of helping me, with her during the day, but just because I do so much other writing, coaching, and teaching and other things I have to do. I really miss that time where no one's up. Yeah. And I don't have any obligations and it's, I'm fresh out of a dream. Yeah. So I've been kind of fighting for that, almost middle of the nighttime. Wow. So in my, I don't talk about it that much'cause I feel like it kind of makes me sound crazy. No, like, I mean, as I think I've told. People who aren't moms and they think it's crazy. They're crazy. You're insane. And anytime I tell it to a mom, they're like, I totally get that. I did that. Totally. They're like, I get it. So it's like I am getting enough sleep, but sometimes it's like I just go to bed at seven when she goes down, you know? And that's it.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Chelsea:So I find that I have to fight for it in a new way. but that has been what has worked best for me because writing at night is almost impossible.
Krisserin:Oh, yeah. Dead. It's like my brain is dead, dead
Chelsea:fried. So, um, I do have other morning time, but like I said, it's like I work so much with other stuff that sometimes I have, I feel like, oh, I can't write today. So I have to fight to say, right now you woke up at three 30 for a reason.
Krisserin:Yeah. Get,
Chelsea:do it. Do the
Speaker 3:work. Do you have a ritual around your writing time?
Chelsea:Do you do anything special? Not really. I try to not be too precious about it. I think I did early on and that would result in me not writing. Mm. So I think I went to an artist residency at McDowell once, so I did one formal residency. Other times I've. Uh, before I got pregnant and had a baby, I would do like hotel residencies or I would just go to a hotel for two days and not really leave and just kind of be in the book. Yeah. And I, that's been helpful for me too, but having been at one of those residencies, that's a cabin in the woods alone, someone cooks for you. I'm like, that is certainly the ideal. Yeah. Yeah. It did work for me. It did make me feel crazy. Yeah. It was so fruitful for me. Yeah. So I think someday I'll do that again or want to do it again. But, I think now, my husband and I moving here, it was a part of feeling like we didn't always have to get away from New York. Mm-hmm. And we're just, we live in a forest. Yeah.
Krisserin:Yeah.
Chelsea:So that's a part of it where I don't have to be too precious about my surroundings'cause I'm in nature.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm.
Chelsea:Um, and if I'm just sitting at my kitchen table with my laptop and my coffee, that's all I do. So I do down Cold brew. Like cold brew concentrate where I'm just like, yeah, three 30 in the morning and I'm just buzzing. Yeah. So that's what I do.
Krisserin:I love that. What would you say,'cause you have this great community that you created with morning writing club. Yeah. What's the thing you feel like you are helping them with the most? What are they struggling through the most?
Chelsea:Um, I think that something I find is really common with writers who have not published a book or are not in a community of people who have published books is they think that once you publish a book, everything is fine. Yeah. It's gonna solve everything. And that, you know, you know what to do. Yeah. Everything's fine. Your whole life changes like there. And so I think sometimes, wait, are you telling me that's not the case? So I think like in a, in a best case scenario, your life does change. Hopefully your life changes for the better. You're known as a writer, you have a published book, you've accomplished your goal. I think philosophically it's really important to remember that that doesn't solve whatever's going on inside. Course not. So it's like any sort of like perfectionism, self-worth, self-perception. It's almost magnified by, trying to promote the book and be proud of the book. So I think that something I try to remind people and try to kind of be in service to them for is reminding them that. For me, it's a lifelong pursuit. Mm-hmm. It's not like I publish a book and everything's fine and I turn off. That book taught me how to write it. This book I'm writing now teaches me how to write it because I'm engaged with it in a meaningful way. So I try to just remind people that having that sense of being able to connect with your work in a meaningful way, that might be the most important part of writing. Rather than publishing. Yeah. And so I'm a pretty good model of that because sometimes people get really paranoid about working on a book for several years and thinking, well, I haven't published a short story in the New Yorker. Or, um, you know, I, I don't publish that much. Should I be doing more? And I'm like, I haven't published in two years. And I'm like, you can choose to opt out. It's not gratifying for me in a certain way. I like putting my work into the world, but I kind of just see that as part of the ecosystem of being a writer. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't write to publish necessarily. So, um, I think that that is comforting to a certain type of writer where they feel like they always have to be in the public sphere and promoting themselves. And I think it's all about cycles where it's like, we know when, hopefully when this book I'm writing now gets published, I will be in self-promotion mode. Yeah. I will try to go on tour. I'll try to be external in a way that I'm not naturally out there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But in the meantime, I feel like I'm in hibernation. I live very intentionally in the middle of, you know, a tourist town where I don't see many people. Mm-hmm. Um, I, right in the middle of the night, you know, it's like, I like kind of being in a cocoon with my work until it's ready. So I like to remind people that a lot of what being a writer is, is just being able to show up for your work. It's okay to be afraid at times. It's okay to feel blocked, but there seems to be a lot of power even over zoom in the idea that like in talking with each other and meeting over Zoom, that we're all in it together. Mm-hmm. There's this kind of energy that's generated from that.
Krisserin:So how do you get out of your hibernation phase into self-promotion phase? Because I feel like the self-promotion part of being a writer feels very scary to me. Yeah. Um, and I think probably for a lot of people, because writers are, I think by nature, a little bit more solitary, a little, yeah. Permits that sit in their cave and. Yeah. Create their stories. Yeah. How do you, because I feel like you do, you do, you do really well at it. Thanks. I, I feel like you put yourself out there regularly and, I'm always seeing posts about morning writing club. Yeah. And I think it's, your Tumblr is a really great example of that. Yeah. Just showing up and doing it. Yeah. And it does open doors when you do self them up. When you put yourself out there, you don't put yourself out there, no one's gonna know you exist. Right. Yeah. So I
Chelsea:think a lot of it is the experiences I've had that are a direct correlation of putting myself out there. I think ultimately, I'm proud of the things that I accomplish when they're ready. So, um, I also, when I worked as a personal assistant, I worked for a literary publicist named Lauren Cerand. Do you know who that is? Mm-hmm. Okay. She works at, um, she used to work out in New York when I lived there, and we're still friends to this day. And she taught me so much of how to promote a book effectively, and not in a way where she's like, okay, you have to be on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, like, she's like. Do what feels meaningful to you, you know, and like do you know, put essays out that feel authentic to you. Mm-hmm. And so she has a really unique kind of perspective on being in the world as a writer. I learned a lot from her and seeing what other authors did. Before I had a book out, I could see when an author was resistant to putting themselves out there, saying no to readings or whatever, it hurt them in a certain way. So I tried to be like, okay, even if there's a part of me that maybe isn't, feels not ready to do that or something, I'm gonna put myself in a new position to just see what happens. And I think, around the publication of a book. It's like you, and for me in particular, I thought, well, you only debut once.
Krisserin:Yeah.
Chelsea:I guess I will be no pressure. I guess I'll be a debut novelist, you know, at, at one point. But that'll be my second book hopefully. Um, but uh, I just thought, I think I gotta just. Push it. I think I gotta work really hard and so I used a lot of my advance to tour the book actually. You know, like, wow. Publishers generally don't give you
Speaker 3:money,
Chelsea:any sort of money towards it. Yeah. I booked my own events and that seemed to work pretty well. So of just kind of putting myself out there traveling. And I did one reading in Philadelphia. It was at a museum. It was like such a cool place to do a reading. There was some sort of drama with the other local readers. Oh. And they all dropped out. What? It had nothing to do with me. It had to do with one of the readers that they didn't wanna read with. Okay. And that it's like I didn't know anything that was going on. I'm like, not in the scene, Phil. It was like totally Philly drama. And the person who had invited me and curated this was like, the reading's not happening, and I was like, I'm showing up. And I was like, don't cancel it. I'm on my way. Yeah. I like spent money on a hotel. Yeah. I spent money on a train and it's like, you know, this is something I would've dreaded Yeah. Before, but I was so kind of locked into the idea that. Okay, well the event's already in place. You already invited everyone. Like Let's do it. Yeah. And so I just showed up and all these people had shown up and I said, you know what? For whatever reason, no one else is here. You are stuck with me. And we joked about it and I did a longer reading and. You know, that kind of stuff. It toughens you up. It makes you more confident to just be like, okay, I don't feel great about being the only person on this reading. I don't know if I'm good enough or if I'm what they want to hear from. But I will do it because I've spent this money and, so I think in a way it does become kind of fun to, um. Adopt another persona in a way. Mm-hmm. I think my default is to just be alone, to be quiet. Mm-hmm. To not even speak, but that's not really healthy to do, like for your whole life. Like for instance, I really like being here with you and talking with you. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thanks
Chelsea:for coming. But um, it is something where I'm like, okay, I'll choose to do, to like kind of practice that part of my personality. Mm-hmm. At this time, you know, so it's like, it's, it's, it's a choice for a writer, I think. And it's not always natural.
Krisserin:Well, I don't wanna end the interview without talking about your music. Mm. So, sure. You just released a single. Yeah. It's beautiful. Thank you so much. It's like hauntingly Beautiful. Thank you. I, that's really nice. Thanks. Tell me, because you said you, you had an interest in music originally. Yeah. Punk background. Yeah. First of all, when did you find the time? Yeah. Secondly, what, what brought you back to music?
Chelsea:Yeah. Music is something I've always, I think, wanted to do. Again, I think a lot of what I do is comes down to confidence in a way where I think there was a part of me that didn't feel like a performer. So like, part, being a musician requires you to be on stage and out there in a way that maybe I didn't feel comfortable doing.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm.
Chelsea:And through writing and doing readings and feeling fine doing that, maybe it gave me another sense of confidence in that way. But really what happened was, so I've always played, I've always played guitar, played piano for a long time, and, my oldest friend from childhood, his name's Adam, he works as an engineer at a studio in Portland, Oregon. And, when I got pregnant, there was a part of me that thought, if I don't do this now, I might never do it, because I'd been thinking like, okay, I think I'm almost ready. I think I'm almost ready.
Speaker 3:Maybe I'll do it.
Chelsea:You know, just kind of being like, maybe I'll, maybe I'll, maybe I'll do that someday. And then I got pregnant and my husband supported me of being like, you should record, like you should do this.'cause we had been, I'd been like, well maybe in the next year I'll do it. Mm-hmm. And then it, you know, you kind of have your due date, the ultimate deadline. And so I talked with my friend, I said, what do you think about me coming out there and trying to record? Mm-hmm. He goes, yeah, totally. So everything was kind of in place and um, I did four. Recording sessions. Uh, three in Portland, one in Sedona. Once I was so pregnant, I couldn't travel. Mm-hmm. My friend came out here and, um, we recorded all of these songs and then, I had my baby and we were actively kind of mixing. So there was a lot, there's a lot that happens in music after you record. Mm-hmm. So, I think maybe the perception is that like, I just did this. That's what I thought. I was like, wow, she just did this. But the process has been a lot longer similar to books where it's like, you know, yeah, the book comes out, but you wrote it, you know, three years prior, whatever, like it can take forever to come out. I had a similar kind of slow approach to this where I really wanted to be sure that it was good and ready. I didn't wanna just put a song out. In a, in just a way that didn't have an intention or meaning behind it. Like, Hey, look what I did. I wanted to do an album. Mm-hmm. So I am releasing a couple singles and then I'll do a full album next year, which is like all done. That's so exciting. So it's, been like three years in the making, so you're gonna go on tour. I dunno. So that's kind of like to be determined of what kind of musician I will be. Um, but my husband is like a, you know, an active musician. Um, and so I'm, uh, you know, the first author I published on Rose Books is a touring musician, so I've always kind of been in that world. Yeah. And it feels really good to kind of have my own voice in it. So for me it's been similar to switching genres, where I think there's something in me that I do wanna challenge that idea, that I should be comfortable in what I'm doing. Mm-hmm. I do kind of like the discomfort in a way because it provides friction.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm.
Chelsea:Where it's like being in a recording studio. I got there and I was like, who do I think I am? Why did I do this? This is horrible. This. And it's like you hear your voice in the mic. Oh, I know. Oh god. And my friend's just going, don't worry. We got it. Like, it just, everyone hates their voice the first time they hear it. Don't worry. So he was kind of coaching me through it. But, um, I think there's a lot of, uh, kind of, I don't know. There's, there's some, there's a feeling you get when you kind of overcome that fear and you work through something really challenging. That is gratifying. Oh, yeah. In a way that it's not if I'm like, oh, I've always recorded music, like I'm just gonna go do it again. It was a really kind of big event in my life to have faced that fear and have done it. So, especially being sick in my pregnancy, I have done a recording session. Not pregnant. And I thought, oh my God, it's a whole new world. I was like, oh, this is great. My really sounds way better than
Speaker 3:everything that a baby. So it's kind of crazy
Chelsea:that like I did what I did, but um. But I did have the sense of like, I gotta do it now. Yeah. So I just followed that, you know, and I was still writing through it, but with music you can kind of go to the studio, plug in, and then go on your way and then do it again in a couple months. So, I would like to tour, I guess ideally, I don't know how it would work in my life or I think it's very expensive to do, but Yeah. But we'll see.
Speaker 3:That's so exciting. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming, Chelsea. Thank you so much. So great. And I feel like I learned a lot. A lot to share with everybody, and you built such an incredible community, so that's so nice. Thank you so much. Yeah. And everyone should go listen to your single. Yeah, thanks. It's under my name on Spotify, wherever you get your music. It is absolutely beautiful. And we're gonna play it as an outro. Yes, that's right. Thank you. All right. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks so much for coming.
Kelton:Oh my God Chris cool. I'm so there
Krisserin:You guys would get along really well. She's a fellow Libra. She just had her birthday, her birthdays three days before mine. So, yeah, it was a really great conversation despite the, there is a family behind us and then they had a drone and there were plane and I was like, oh my God, this is a little distracting. But we had a great talk and she's so inspiring and you know, we talked last week about confidence. I love the co I I was editing the episode and listening to. You compliment me about how I'm always fishing. This woman, she is really constantly working. I can't believe she gets up at two 30 in the morning to write. It's just incredible. Yeah, and she has a 2-year-old, so her. Her daughter is a little bit older than Woods, but she just makes the time. She's working on a novel. She's releasing an album, she's got a writing group. It just goes to show that when it's something that's important to you, you find the time for it. You have to make the time for it no matter how full life is with other things.
Kelton:Deep respect Speaking of making the time for things are you gonna what time for this week Er
Krisserin:Well, I'm in Scottsdale until the end of the week and I'm probably going to be very busy with work things'cause that's why I'm here. I'm here for a work retreat. and I think when I get back home, the kids have school off on Monday. I think it's Indigenous People's day. And so three day weekend for them. I'm just going to enjoy spending time with them and hopefully get by the time we talk, our next recording. I'm hoping to get further along on the second book. I don't, I think it's a little ambitious to try and finish reading through the remaining 130 or so pages, I probably could, I don't have as much fire under me as I did to revise the first book. Um, but it's interesting'cause I'm gonna go from revision mode into writing mode.'cause I'm gonna start writing the second, the end of the second book. So, I think between now and the next time we speak, I want to have, you know, gotten through at least half. Of the pages that I have left of the second book and revise them and read'em out loud and, and listen to them. It's hugely helpful. I, I'm feeling like such a hypocrite'cause I always tell people to do it and then I didn't do it. Now that I'm doing it, I'm like, I was right the whole time. I should have just listened to myself.
Kelton:I love that
Krisserin:How about you?
Kelton:It's trying to lock in those memoir chapters on the 12th and, start querying. I had a really amazing conversation with Emily Halman author of Book really beautiful book about running and grief she was in my area went a hike with our crazy dogs And was talking about
Krisserin:kind of mad that you didn't record your conversation with her.
Kelton:I know didn't even occur to me and was telling that one that that she done back before she published through her marketing all of her marketing options it to just have it from beginning all the people who podcast might the you in their newsletter like it's just such a great way to just make your package I have some elements I have on my larger proposal four authors who are various bestsellers I'm like I think this person before I send out the proposal of those to be people like do this um I hadn't thought about All that Emily was include this you should include this include this thinking about that broader marketing into this weekend to give my once I get chapters before I start looking at the are I just bolster that marketing that back to me with this I think this could that at least that part little more Um and then going next weekend, I'm gonna be camping gonna do late camping a little cold desert Um and then I'll have time to like through whole away from the noise of laptops So that That's what's ahead Um I hope I hope it happens
Krisserin:That's just more evident. I, I was listening to you talk about cold desert camping, and I went, ugh.
Kelton:Listen I don't like really I don't really love desert camping but promise that do something fun with the family And Ben's version of fun and I am the neighbors if
Krisserin:Okay. Fair enough. Yeah, I mean that just goes back to, first of all, we have to have her on the pod because it sounds like that would be a very useful conversation for a lot of people. Think about their marketing plan and about for their book. But I think that it just goes back to this idea of reaching out to people whose work you admire and trying to form connections with other authors and creating your writing community. I was thinking about what you said very early on in the podcast where you had mentioned that you go out and you follow the substack of writers that you admire and you comment on their work and you engage with them. And I think that that's hugely important because if you want these people to be your peers, you kind of have to engage with them as peers
Kelton:yeah, it's, it's interesting cause like in the beginning when you commenting like reaching and to going to feel a you're gonna feel outta your depth. think you just have to know that going in, that that is how you. Create those friendships now were thinking about this about how many people or who to have on, and I just had like a list of published authors and I was like, these people are not, they're not foreign to me. They're my friends. And that, took time to build those friendships. but it's been really worth it for, you know, their guidance and their of clarity support and, and just like knowing cool people who write like having their art has dramatically I think there is something really special about like, knowing the person who wrote the book adds this like really dynamic and yeah, yeah, it's, it's a delight. if you Listen haven't already podcast stars Krisserin birthday show up and put those five stars in it for herself. So I'm gonna, I'm watch that gonna up and in our tell us us about your projects books Ask us questions Um obviously love to yap something yap pals pod@gmail.com pals pod on the socials And may I finish those sample
Krisserin:They're gonna be fantastic. I can't wait.
Kelton:and may Krisserin finish her second book in a whirling dervish
Krisserin:There's a lot of things that I'm gonna have to figure out for the second book, but I'm excited. I'm excited for it. And next week, actually, well technically tomorrow, but the listeners don't even to know that next week we're gonna have Leslie Ton on the podcast. And I sent Kelton some of her work and it made her cry. So, you know, she's a good writer. Make Kelton cry.
Kelton:Yeah Krisserin said I think this story's really funny
Krisserin:It
Kelton:and then I was Immediately crying cried throughout the whole story Didn't think it was funny at Loved It. but laugh Cried Just cried
Krisserin:It's got, so it's kind of funny funny,
Kelton:is of funny. It's of a I'm crier than laugher
Krisserin:Okay. Yeah. Well she's an incredible writer and she published her first short story collection in her seventies. So if that doesn't inspire you to just keep going, I don't know what will. But everyone, I hope you have an incredible week of writing and Kelton. I'm so looking forward to your chapters.
Kelton:me too
Krisserin:alright, everybody. Happy writing
Kelton:Happy writing.
