Pen Pals

Ghost Stories and Good Luck: Lesley Bannatyne on Contests, Craft, and the Spirit of Halloween

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 2 • Episode 6

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In this episode, Krisserin and Kelton sit down with author and Halloween historian Lesley Bannatyne, whose short story collection Lake Song won the Grace Paley Prize for Short Fiction. Lesley shares her unconventional path to publication—winning major contests without an agent—and the craft lessons she learned along the way. They talk writing community, finding inspiration in spooky places, and why the best stories linger like ghosts long after you close the book.

Learn more about Lesley at lesleybannatyne.com

Get 20% off Lake Song using promo code "LAKE" from Ohio State University Press here: https://ohiostatepress.org/books/titles/9780814259542.html

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton:

Listen, everybody. We are trying to figure out some sound issues. We're not professionals. We're doing this podcast for free. All right.

Krisserin:

For free, but if you did experience any sound issues on, the last episode and during our interview with Lesley Bannatyne it's, it's my fault. I apologize, but, hi.

Kelton:

Hi.

Krisserin:

We're here.

Speaker:

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton:

We're here with our, our mics and our, our headphones Living the life.

Krisserin:

Back in our comfortable spaces recording from our home studios.

Kelton:

My home studio has been a little wild this week. Ben got the flu and we're sort of doing everything in our power to not. Let me get it or give it to the baby. Uh, the toddler, excuse me, he's not a baby anymore. And so Ben has just been hiding out in the basement and I've been solo, uh, momming upstairs with like all my clients and my projects and my child. And of course this is the week that I was like, you know what? We're going on a little vacation this weekend. I'm just gonna give myself off from the newsletter. I'm gonna make this week flow and be easy. This is the second time this year that I have given myself time off from the newsletter, and then someone has gotten sick and my workload has doubled. So I'm like, I feel like I'm cursing myself. I should have just written the newsletter.

Krisserin:

So unfair. makes me so mad to hear that. man. Well, I'm happy to tell everybody that Kelton met her goal. I can say that because I was the recipient of the output of it, she sent me her memoir proposal an entire day early. Actually, you sent it to me on the 11th, I think.

Kelton:

Yeah, well I wasn't gonna be able to work on it on the 12th, so I was like, this is as far as we're getting.

Krisserin:

How does it feel?

Kelton:

Well, I'll let the listeners know that Krisserin slacked me and said she had her feedback and would I like to receive it all written out, or would we just like to talk it through? And I, as a fixed mindset, terrified, little bunny was like, oh no, it's horrible. The proposal's horrible. I have to start it over. I have to start from scratch. So I still don't know what Krisserin's feedback on it is. So how does it feel? It feels nerve wracking.

Krisserin:

So sorry, I didn't mean to like throw you into a stress spiral

Kelton:

It was like when your boss is like, just puts a meeting on for Monday and it doesn't say anything about what it is.

Krisserin:

Now I feel like an asshole.

Kelton:

not at all. Not at all.

Krisserin:

So the reason I asked that is because I would've sat down and written it out. It was just, I figured easier to talk through. And I did send you, to be fair, I sent you my, like, marked up version of the proposal so you could see the notes that I had as I was going through it. But then I had like overarching notes that I thought we

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

I thought that that would be enough for you to

Kelton:

I didn't open it yet because I was like, well, I wanna talk to her first.

Krisserin:

Oh, well. We'll, we can talk about it, but I got back from Arizona Friday

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

I then proceeded to sleep. Friday and Saturday, a total of 23 hours. I was so

Kelton:

Wow.

Krisserin:

tired from that trip. I had a great time. It was probably one of like the best birthday weeks of my life. It was really fun. We had those like two amazing interviews in the span of that week too. So I think that overall it was just like a really fulfilling time. But I was tired. I

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

tired and, I think when I looked at the amount of, so I, I revised the first like 67 pages of the second book and I have since gotten to, hold on, I have it here. I'm one of those people that likes, likes to track progress on things like a of course I don't have it open and I don't know where it is, but think that I've gotten through an additional four chapters. we spoke, but I have like a, like I got to page 109 and I have 190 pages to do. So I did get some work done, but this morning I just like slept right through my alarm and I wear my watch at night to track my sleep and to set the alarm so I don't wake Boyan up when I, when it goes off at 5:00 AM and I must have just like turned it off and went right back to bed. I have no recollection of

Kelton:

Ben does this all the time. Ben is constantly turning off his alarm. And who does it wake up? Just me.

Krisserin:

See, that's why I wear my watch'cause it just vibrates on my wrist

Kelton:

Even,

Krisserin:

w

Kelton:

even when Ben had a silent vibration, I, I am like, alert. I'm alert. I'm like, what's happening?

Krisserin:

I sleep like the dead. I have, earplugs and an eye mask. So unless I'm trying to wake up, I can pretty much sleep through anything, hence sleeping 23 hours over the

Kelton:

Incredible.

Krisserin:

Um, yeah, I only woke up once at 5:00 AM this week and it was a struggle. And I had to, I had Chelsea Hodson's words in my head where she said like, you're getting up at 2:30 for a reason. You gotta get up and do it. And so I did, and I got through three chapters that one morning. I did get some work done this week, but it's, it's a lot less. invigorating, I guess when no one's waiting for the work on the other side. So it's just me and

Kelton:

I'm waiting for that work.

Krisserin:

okay, fine,

Kelton:

You know, the listeners are waiting for that work.

Krisserin:

No, they're not. No, they're not. But yeah, once I get to the end of those 190 pages, I gotta write rest of the book. And I, book, I don't know how it's gonna end. So I'm a little, you know, and it's gotta be, I think I set a big challenge for myself because the book is international, it's global. powers at work are scarier than they were in the first book. So I've gotta, like, I. I gotta figure that out. It's,

Kelton:

Yeah, I mean I, that feel it does sound daunting. Do you ever step back and like stop imagining it in a modern world and just be like, what would this be if it was like a fantasy world? I. I feel like'cause in fantasy, it's so easy to imagine overtaking Sauron you know? Like you can just, yeah, because you can do anything. It's a made up world, you know? You're like, oh, I found a magical potion, or like one ring that had been buried forever. All you have to do is in the end of the Lord of the Rings, all he has to do is throw the ring into the fire. That's the whole thing. It takes a long time to get there.

Krisserin:

that's

Kelton:

could have, and they could have just ridden those flying bird animals right in there and just walked in and blinked it in. But they had to write a series. Okay, don't come from me, LOTR. I love the series. But, you know, I do like imagining an alternate world where I'm not so capsized by modern politics to like sort of work through what an issue could look like.

Krisserin:

Unfortunately my book has modern politics in it,

Kelton:

I know.

Krisserin:

makes it hard. it's funny you say that. I had a coworker who did, have you heard of these PowerPoint nights where everyone like a PowerPoint on a topic of their choosing, did. Um, how long would it take to e-bike Sauron?

Kelton:

Oh, that's really good. Really good.

Krisserin:

Yeah. Well, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I'm really trying to not think about it right now because I am intimidated by the whole prospect of it. But I will say that the work that I've done to get up to the point where I am in the book, which I feel is about halfway through the book or two thirds of the way through the book. I think that I did like a pretty good job of setting things up. I just have to make my character's lives worse, so I need to figure out how do that.

Kelton:

Love that. We're gonna jump into our interview with Lesley, which was so fun, the Queen of Halloween. I loved her and I was really inspired after having that conversation with her and just felt like a, like I'd found a kindred spirit in the world and one who loves spirits. So. She was great. I hope you guys really enjoy this interview and, and, uh, kudos to Krisserin for locking it in.

Krisserin:

Thank you. Well, without further ado, here is our interview with the great Lesley Bannatyne. Today on Pen Pals, we're thrilled to welcome Lesley Ton, whose novel and stories Lake Song, which I have right here, won the Grace Paley Prize for short fiction. It was just published just in September, I think. Right? Um.

Lesley:

1st.

Krisserin:

By Mad Creek Books, Lesley's debut collection. Unaccustomed to Grace was nominated for the story prize and won the Harvard University Thesis Humanity Prize. But what makes this conversation so exciting is that Lesley and I both share a mentor and Dr. Elisabeth Sharp McKetta, from Harvard University Extension Program. And, another thing that's really exciting that we'll talk about is Lesley's extensive work on Halloween history and it's perfect timing. It is. It is October and it is a spooky month. So super excited about that. But before we start, if I may beg, a boon, Lesley, do you mind reading the first, just, I don't know if you would call it a prologue, but the first like page and a half of Lake Song.

Lesley:

sure. Desire cover the land like winter demanding unyielding. Like the miles of low hills that stretched westward, uninterrupted by mill or Derek or brick. It was this torn pocket of West Central New York that the Angel Maroney led Joseph Smith Jr. To the Hill Kimora, to receive the golden plates that would become the Book of Mormon. Here. Visions came to Mother Ann, Leah shakers to Jemima Wilkinson and her Universal friends, and to teenager Maggie Fox and her little sister Kate. Who unwittingly birth spiritualism in their bedroom. It was called the burned Over District because there wasn't a single soul who hadn't been set on fire by religion. The resources of the natural world lay beneath their feet in the kingdom of heaven above their heads, and it was this bounty that encouraged the people who lived here to move in any direction or any dimension brought them closer to the divine. It made them more susceptible, perhaps. To the grifters and wayward who followed the saints, but also to the inexplicable, the miraculous, and the glorious. It is here that you find us. For all of lakes, dug deep in the rock was the smallest of these, and the town of Kinder Falls spr up around it. First. Squatter, and houses, barns, stores, autos, sidewalks, electricity. The town grew, languished, prospered, suffered, boomed, settled. Throughout it all. People watch the reflection of the evening in water, orange, pink, gray, dark stars. They listened to the loon's. Whale fish, thrashing for insects. Waves ticking off the minutes, hours before bed. lake gave all these, but the lake also took wedding rings. China boats watches. Keys, glasses, shoes, oars, tarps, Ella's towels, toys. Shovels. Wagon wheels, horseshoes rope, spoons, pipes, canes, and soles. Drunken, confused or misled. The lake was a diary. Wind turned the pages canoes floated like commas.

Krisserin:

So good. That last line slays me. I actually read this to my mom yesterday. I was like, mom, I have to read this to you. Oh, it's so beautiful. You're such a beautiful writer, Lesley. And as I've been reading your book, I've been humbled how much work I have to do. To become a better writer. But we're so thrilled to have you on the podcast and chat about your writing journey. So a lot of our listeners are aspiring novelists, aspiring first time, they're trying to get to our first, you know publishing milestone in our careers. And I remember when you came and spoke in Dr. McKetta's class, you had a really incredible writing journey, and I would love for you to share with us kind of what that has looked like for you. When did you start writing? When did you decide you wanted to, pursue publishing?

Lesley:

When did I start writing? I can show you. I still have my first rejection letter. It came when I was six years old, so had submitted a story or probably my first grade teacher had submitted a story, flowers for Mother. Which was probably a page long and included illustrations by the author and she sent it to a publishing house in Chicago and they wrote back and it was not a hard no. So I, I still have that out there, but it was, um, you know. We, we encourage you, keep writing stories and, and here are some pretty book covers. So I've always written stories from the very beginning. It was something that I loved to do and something I did almost for entertainment as a child. And then I took a really long detour through nonfiction from the time I published my first book, which was on Halloween, you know, in. 1990, so a good long time ago. And then after that started to do a lot of nonfiction and I wrote, uh, four more books regarding Halloween, around Halloween, a kid's book and anthology. A lot of different ways of going in through this holiday and other holidays. And I also started writing for newspapers and magazines, fashion shows, everything I could get my hands on. then. Question is like, when did you consider yourself a writer rather than an author? Because I think many people make that distinction. I, you know, I was an author once I published a book, but then I really felt like I started to become a real writer when I started writing fiction because it was such a different animal and it required so much more of myself, my craft, my ideas, my brain, my imagination, everything. So. When I started taking short story classes at the Harvard Extension School wrote my first short fiction that I had written in. Since I was 22, that felt like I had landed somewhere as, as an as a writer. once I continued to do that and work at it and take classes and workshops and and get better and get myself out there, started to make sense that this was, this was something that I would spend a good deal of my life doing. I've done it ever since.

Kelton:

What caught your eye about the Harvard Extension Program? Like what made you take the leap into taking that kind of class?

Lesley:

You know, that's a great question. I was working at Harvard and as an employee, I was a editor and a communications person there, as an employee, classes are free at Harvard Extension, I had been taking classes for more than a decade, you know, in religion in. In history in Irish mythology and anything I could find. And I came across a short story class and I thought, oh, I used to do this. I wonder if it's, you know, still something that it's any juice there. so I took the class and I was probably older than all the other students by about 30 or 40 years. And I looked around at this table full of really young, bright vocal. people who knew exactly what they were doing and what they were talking about and were enthusiastic. And I thought, oh my gosh, what am I doing here? then I got the first in assignment and, um, was just opened up everything. It was like, I, I explain it like this, which is the best way I can explain it. It's like going through your house and you find a room you never knew was in your house, you walk into that room and it's a whole other house. So, once I wrote the first story, I was completely hooked. And so I took more and more workshops, writing workshops, story workshops, intermediate story, advanced story. taken about eight and someone said. I get a degree because I was just taking them independently because they were so much fun and I loved them and I was getting better. So you mean I have to apply? so I, I did. There was an introductory essay of, I don't know, a hundred words. Do you remember? It was, it was something to, to, to prove that you could write a sentence

Krisserin:

That's right. That's right.

Lesley:

it was a timed exercise and I thought again, oh my gosh, timed exercise. Well, no, all these things are not scary. They were not, they were not difficult. I actually could in fact write, you know, 250 words in under an hour or whatever they required us to do. So I entered the program and, finished the program in 2020.

Krisserin:

I cannot believe you have not been writing short stories your entire life because you're so good at them.

Lesley:

Well,

Krisserin:

You're, you What were you gonna say?

Lesley:

been writing stories my whole life, but just not in, in, in the

Krisserin:

Not in.

Lesley:

reform.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Lesley:

spent a long time in theater where I also wrote. Plays short playlets and scenes and things like that. So it wasn't like creative writing was completely foreign to

Krisserin:

Right.

Lesley:

But, um, fiction writing and literary fiction was something that I came back to after a long, long detour.

Krisserin:

What does your writing community look like? The people around you who support you and encourage you, and did you gain a lot of, peers while you went through the extension program?

Lesley:

My writing community now is a wonderful conglomeration of a writer's group that

Krisserin:

I.

Lesley:

been with for about. 10 years, 12 years or so maybe six or seven people, plus readers that I've met along the way who are really wonderful readers. And in this I include of course, Dr. Mcta and some other professors that I did have at the Extension School, but also colleagues, people I met either in the writing group who left the group, but now, you know, live in Seattle or something. um. Other writers that I have met that there's a simpatico. So I now have many people I could send work out to and say, Hmm, you know, I'm not sure about this, X, Y, or Z is, can you give me, can me give me your opinion? So I do have a sounding board. Um, many of them did not come from the program. That was because it's, I ended just around COVID and we were all scattered to the, to the four corners of the earth. Then where we had been on campus for part, for most of it, and then we dissipated. So I think we never got to graduate together. We never got in person. We never got that final piece of it. So I, I don't have as many writing colleagues from the program other than faculty. But I have a lot of writing colleagues from my area, which is Greater Boston, where there is a gazillion writers.

Krisserin:

Amazing. besides Dr. McKetta, are there other mentors or teachers along the way that helps you develop as a writer?

Lesley:

Dr. McKetta was the first, and so she is as you know, completely inspiring. Just, you know, go, go, go. That's all she says. Go, go, go. But I would say that, you know, I could count on one finger the professors I had, the writing professors I had in the extension school that I did not completely love and got a lot from, as well as the people in my workshops where I got a lot from also. but I, because in the program it's literature and creative writing, you have to. You take courses outside, I found those just as equally enriching. So for example, my Irish Underworld course was just as fascinating and inspiring as my 20th Century short story course, which I was dreading because I was an English major. I had done this before and here I was again, a long time later in an English class. at the Dubliners, you know, which I'd probably written five papers on when I was 21, and I'm like, I have to write papers about this again. Are you kidding me? it was a humbling and wonderful experience to do that because you come to it completely differently at different ages, and you write differently at different ages, and I completely, thoroughly enjoyed. All of the classes that were outside the workshop situation as well as my workshops, what I think the workshops did, um, above all, besides giving you a chance to practice and get better and put something out there that other people talk about, is to, um, become such a much better reader of other people's work. So, uh, that happened a lot during my years in workshop in the Extension School because each time you've got a. You've gotta read and critique and come up with interesting things to say about your colleagues' work, that's a skill. And it's a, it's a skill that not everybody is great at, and so it deserves kind of polishing and they do that a lot in the Extension school, and I appreciated the guardrails, how you talk about work, what kinds of things you're looking for. You're not looking for your opinion about it. You're looking for what's the piece trying to do and how is it getting there. These things were incredibly valuable I think in the extension school.

Kelton:

All this practicing and learning and building your peer group, what was the leap to publishing Unaccustomed to Grace? What took you like from being like, well, I write these short stories for my classmates and enjoy this to being like, I'm gonna publish something.

Lesley:

Right, right. Well. it's, it's luck and circumstance and you're just at the place at the right time. I was in a workshop and Elizabeth McKetta said, you know, I'm judging this contest. Why? You know, to all the students, why don't you mentor? And I thought, I've got a story. I'll enter. Well, I entered and I won. So that brought me to the Southwest to do readings and. And gave me a lot of encouragement. You know, you win win one contest. You think, oh, okay, maybe I have something here. so I would go out on one of the many, many poets and writers, do a trope, chill subs, submission sites, and look for places that were having contests and. because the first contest I won came out of New Mexico. I thought, Hey, the Southwest sounds like a great place for me to submit my work. had success there before, so I submitted to the Tucson Festival of Books Fiction Contest, and I won it. And so I went to Tucson did a, a workshop, a workshop with them, and. Met a lot of wonderful writers. Again, this is how you build your network. Met a lot of wonderful writers out there sitting around in the desert doing workshops and, um, getting together. It was, it was wonderful, but I mean, that was, those are two lucky breaks, but it didn't, they happened because I had a piece ready and I submitted it. I could have just as easily passed by Tucson and said, Ugh, What's, what not, I'll never win that one. Or, you know, I want, I want, I applied because they take the top 50 and give them a free workshop. And I thought, well, that could be interesting. and so I kept applying to contests and I kept, sending work out. So that was the break. I think the fact that you, it does work. You can do it. I'll tell you another one that was very encouraging. The, there's duotrope will break down how many acceptances each magazine has. in other words, how hard is this magazine to get into? And many magazines accept 80 or 90% of submissions. the first story I ever sent out, it was called salt. I just looked for something that accepted 80% of submissions and I sent it to that magazine. um, I got an acceptance within an hour. And I

Kelton:

were like, salt is exactly what we needed.

Lesley:

exactly. We were just looking for this right now. So I think, you know, there's, there's no shame in submitting to magazines that are smaller magazines. It's encouraging and somebody gets to read your story, which is the whole point of it. So I didn't, I considered that. I thought, okay, okay, this is gonna work. This is gonna work. I submit. They accept. It appears. It's not like some thing that you can't see, some obscure thing you can't see. You can actually see how it all works. And now I'm currently reading for a literary magazine. It's based in Boston. So I'm reading the submissions that come in. So now I'm learning about what it is to be on the other side to get a thousand. I'm not reading a thousand. There's a team of readers. But to get a lot of submissions and read through all these stories and to see, see how you decide how these decisions are made. And I can tell you it's one or two people that like your work that makes a difference.

Krisserin:

That's incredible. What are you looking for when you're reading these submissions?

Lesley:

I'm looking for a certain level of craft, which is very clear in the first two or three paragraphs, I'm looking for, um, that draws me in. I mean, everybody says this, but it's true. I'm looking for a story that draws me. So something needs to be happening right in the beginning it needs to carry me all the way through and then. I've read every single, you know, I've read them in entirety. there are some, sometimes people will say, well, you don't need to read the whole thing if, if you know, right up top that it's not gonna work. But I read the whole thing because you never know what's gonna happen in the middle. It could just switch around and be wonderful and then somebody just needs to fix something up top. But, It's gotta draw me all the way through and not sort of, go in different directions or Peter out as it goes through. So a really strong through line, I guess is what I'm saying, and, uh, that. I either like or hate, you know, and, some sort of quest. And I don't mean every story's an adventure story, but every story is about something and I need to feel that in the beginning and, and feel it all the way through. other than that, it can be anything. I mean, I've been reading stories set in outer space and stories set on somebody's front porch and, you know, it doesn't matter where or what, what genre or what style.

Kelton:

I think a good example of what you're asking for is a story you wrote within a, IM a through line and immediate hook and characters is corpse walks into a bar. Krisserin sent me. and I, I don't feel like I'm giving anything away with the title of the piece. A Corpse Walks into this guy's bar and he's, asked him to get, get him buried. And that story, uh, drove me through Propulsively. And one thing I, I really loved about that piece is that you, you don't spend any time justifying it or explaining how, or, or setting up this backstory. You're just, you're in it with the main character who's gotta bury this corpse and that's all there is to it. And I really respect that ability to not worry about all that background noise and trust that your reader can stay. on what's happening. That is a big struggle for me. And I know that's sort, it's an ambiguous question I'm asking, but how do you prevent the weeds from cluttering your story?

Lesley:

Good. That's a wonderful way of putting it. Well, one thing is, the reason I love short stories so much is because there are, are nice guardrails around them. You know, they're contained in boxes. It's not a novel where the whole world is at is your oyster. It's, it's a little box so you can define that box. So if I say. It's late at night and a corpse walk into the bar. I don't that you, you're either with me or you won't. You know, those are my guidelines and this is the reality we're in. And so, you know, follow me here so I don't worry about that. You just set them really strongly and, and I love that about short stories. In fact, it's why I continue to write short stories. as far as the weeds. I can speak for myself in saying that those come out in revision and that they're probably, you know, if I looked at the first draft of a corpse walks into the bar, I know I have the first sentence. Is the same because I know that's exactly where I started, but I bet there's another 10 pages of weeds that came out of that piece over the course of working on it. And that's explaining things like where are we and did we turn this corner, and how far was the street and was there a street light? All that stuff starts to fall away once you see. What you have once you, once, once it's driving through and you see all the things you can get rid of and still tell the story and, and if your readers are getting lost or you're getting lost, you know that you need better words to describe what you're doing. So it's a matter of choosing, you know, the right words. We all try to do that. But you can get rid of all the stuff because readers are really smart and they will follow you if you give them little teeny breadcrumbs all the way through. And don't make confusing sentences.

Kelton:

I, I, I love that. Yeah. It's easier to see what's growing in the garden once you get the weeds out.

Lesley:

Yes, yes. Sometimes you don't know what you're worrying about until after the story is done. You really don't know. And then you can say, oh. Okay, this is about loss. realize that I thought it was about a guy getting buried. I thought it was about finding peace, kind of.

Kelton:

Yeah, Krisserin told me that short story was very funny, and then when I read it, I told her I cried the whole way through. So we had different reactions to it, it was spectacular. I.

Krisserin:

We both loved it, so

Lesley:

you.

Krisserin:

yeah. What does your writing routine look like? Lesley?

Lesley:

When I am working on a story, I write in blocks of three to four hours at a time, a few days a week, three to four days a week. then I make careful notes of where I'm leaving off and where I'm going next.'cause I know I'm not gonna get back to it for a couple of days just because of how life is. When I'm not working on a story, I tend to kind of glide around in the late afternoons and pick up things here and there, read something, write something down, take notes. it's not as, rigorous or disciplined as when I'm in the middle of working on a story. And when I'm working on a story, everything goes into the story. So whatever I read, whatever I see, you know. Your jacket, your headphones, the beautiful stone chimney behind you. It looks like a chimney is gorgeous. all become fodder. If I'm working on a story, it's like everything goes into it. And when I'm not, when I'm taking notes or starting or thinking, or in between, I'm just the same old, you know, dunderheaded person that I always am.

Krisserin:

What, do you read for inspiration? Who are your authors that you just keep going back to over and over again?

Lesley:

I go to Tony Morrison for glorious Gorgeousness. and to be unafraid of writing hard things. She's, kind of amazing that way. It takes such courage. I go to Karen Russell when I need inventive language, and you just, you know, you never think of the words that she puts together. So, inspiring. I love William Faulkner. And so just for like, what, what writing can be, how many different ways it can go. I, I am a fan of Lauren Groff short stories, particularly something called Florida, which I go to again and again because it's so emotionally sophisticated. for, for that, I go to her. I'm, Richard Russo and his, all of his New Hampshire, new England stories love those. Richard Powers for really smart, smart writing and how much you can put in a book. His understory was just knocked my socks off. It's about. You know, nature and ecology and climate, but it's, it, it was just so packed full of wonderful research and smart thinking. So different offers for different things.

Krisserin:

I know you went through the extension program and you've had a a lifetime of writing nonfiction in plays, but how do you continue to improve your craft? What is it that you're doing, practice your habits that keep you growing as a writer?

Lesley:

All right. I've recently discovered this that, going to see other writers in book events is incredibly illuminating because, well, number one, you get to hear how they talk about their work, which I think really helps. You parse your own work and understand your own work because at some point you do have to explain your work and at least describe it. And I find that really fascinating because authors do it in so many different ways. So it's kind of like studying the, uh, the population out there of authors and how they think about what they do. And I find that really helpful in terms of craft, because there are things that they say that I've never thought about. how you come into a story or how, how you build a character or, or a setting or something. It, it always, there's always something in there I can learn. I love that. I read, of course, I go to conferences and, and, you know, take workshops whenever I can either online or in person about things that I'm really interested in and from. Authors that I've heard of or know about or respect, and there's a lot of that out there and, and much of it is free, there's the George Sanders Story Club. That's some minimal. You know, fee to join his substack and there's stuff online all the time. There was just a recent, wonderfully wonderful literature festival by the Authors Guild that that is online that you can, if you're a member, you can access it and see a conversation between Marilyn Robinson and someone else, and. Always interesting to hear people talk about their work and say such, such wonderful things. So I, I think that goes to craft. And then reading definitely goes to craft. And then the discipline goes to craft. How do you keep doing it? You keep, keep writing and hopefully every book makes you better. A better writer or every story makes you a better writer. So. I mean, those three things, they're, they're, they're different parts of the brain, but they all go into the same

Kelton:

How about craft's? Evil twin marketing? Um, what is, can you talk a little about, um, you know, when you found an agent and publicity and like, you know, obviously it's, it's amazing to do all this beautiful writing and then you have to go make people read it. So how do you approach that?

Lesley:

Yeah, you asked this

Kelton:

I.

Lesley:

at a good time because I have just, um, you know, the Lake Song just came out September 1st, so this past month has been nothing. But, but that, let me talk about agents first because my career has taken a u my first book, was a history of American Halloween, was agented. That was the only time I ever had an agent, and the only reason I had an agent was because she was my college roommate and we were both starting out. She was starting out as a literary agent. I was starting out as a writer for hire. She found out that a friend of hers was looking for holiday books at a New York Publishing house. Okay. So this is how things line up you just have to be available at the moment to be able to take advantage of it. So she said les's write a proposal for, there's two holidays left Election Day and Halloween. Write a proposal. I'll give it to Kate. I bet they'll take it. I went Halloween election day. Mm-hmm. So I went Halloween. Which was not the easier choice and, she did sell the book. That was my first and only Agented experience. every other book I have sold myself, the two fiction ones, my two literary fictions, which were contest driven. So, unaccustomed to Grace was my first book of short stories. I submitted it to a competition by a magazine that I found that was looking for story collections. There are a few, you know, less than 20, but a few, and it did not win. But, the guy in charge of the contest in the press called and said, I'd like to publish it anyway. Okay, I, okay, that works for

Kelton:

Okay.

Lesley:

That works for me. I'm happy. And that turned out to be just a wonderful experience. So, lake Song, had a similar trajectory, so I had submitted it to a number of contests and it won the Grace Paley Prize, which meant. publication was part of that prize, so AWP, the Association of Writing Programs, writers and Writing Programs gave it the prize, and as part of the prize, Mad Creek Books of Ohio State University would publish it. That was an incredibly lucky break because, know, I had, I had just written it and sent it out and it happened really fast. I didn't expect it to, but it did. So all of a sudden I was dealing with a manuscript and finishing a, you know, polishing a manuscript that I had no idea. I thought I had another year or two to kind of finesse it, but it got connect, it got kind of compacted, and I, and I was able to do that. those, those are all un agented. The next time I write a story, collection or a book or something, I'm gonna have to go out and do the same thing I always do, which is try to query agents, try to enter contests. You try every which way you can to get it out there. I just this week got a rejection for Lake Song to a contest that I, I forgot that I had entered and it wasn't in a submittable, you know, it wasn't digitalized. It was some. Other kind of contest and I just got a, we regret to inform you, we aren't able to publish your book.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Lesley:

oh, that's great

Kelton:

Yeah, you can send them a rejection right back and I regret to inform you it has been published.

Krisserin:

Or you could just send them the book and be like, jokes on you.

Lesley:

That actually just goes to prove that you just, it's whoever the book lands with, you know, you just don't know. As I said, it takes a person or two people read it and say, wow, okay, this is, this is what I'm looking for. And many people will say, this is not what I'm looking for. And it has nothing to do with how good or bad it is. it, it really is a matter of personal taste. At a certain point you ask about marketing. Regardless of who publishes your book, you still have to do a great deal of it yourself. And, um, that's when your literary community comes into it, because those are the people you're gonna depend on to help you get the word out and to show up at your book events and, and, and amplify whatever publicity you can do. Are your friends, your family, everyone you've ever met in your whole life?

Krisserin:

I'd love. About Lake Song for a little bit,'cause I'm really enjoying it. Both Kelton and I are obsessed with place and Lake Song is definitely a place driven story or, novel in stories. So I would love to talk about how place functions as a character in your novel and how, and it's set in finger Lakes in New York. Right. I've been once, I went for a wedding and it was beautiful

Lesley:

Yeah,

Krisserin:

I can see why it would inspire story. But how did the lake shape the stories that you wanna tell?

Lesley:

Place is really important to me a writer in general, I think my ear is better than my eye. I can hear how people talk, how characters talk. I can't so much see where they're standing or what's around them. So if I use a setting in a story or a book, it's gotta be a place I'm familiar with. this particular place, the Finger Lakes. I am very familiar with this place. My grandparents bought a cottage there when they were first married. They gave it to their children, their children gave it to my generation. And so with my cousins, I own this cabin Keuka Lake, which is one of the Finger Lakes. I know the water, I know the light, I know the vegetables that grow around there and when. The farms. The trees and how they and shed. So this, if you're gonna spend three or four years on a book, which you do, you need a place that's evocative, that's conceptually interesting, and that has enough detail that you can. Put your characters on it. They can, they can walk on it. fact that it was a lake is just a, a, a bonus for me because a lake is such a great metaphor for everything. And this lake, you know, it kills, it reminds you of your past. It unites people. It's a touchstone. You come back to, it's actually a seat of memory it has layers. There was so much to do with the lake and the way the lake behaved in the book, so. The lake is never just a lake, especially in this book if, if there's a disturbance in the lake, there's a disturbance in the characters. If there's a storm coming down the lake, something is happening in the book. So it was a wonderful mirror for everything that was going on. Even the emotions of the characters I could put into the weather in the lake. So it was so fertile, an area to set something in, even to mention the history of the place, which is. I read in the beginning is just all true. I mean, 30 alternative religions started in this tiny little place in New York State, so there is something about it that's got some magic in it, and what more could you look for as a writer, is a place like that. So, set there because I was intellectually interested in it. It got set there because I have an emotional to it, and it got set there because. Water is such a great setting for anything. Water, woods, anything like that's, that's got so much in it is, is so useful to a writer.

Krisserin:

I'm still really sad about Mavis,

Lesley:

I'm

Krisserin:

but I love that it's okay, but I love that her canoe comes back. There's. Just the, the lake doesn't hold everything forever. And it is, it does take and give and it's remarkable how you use it as a place that kind of like, you know, you have to come back to, and her ghost doesn't go away,

Lesley:

There you

Krisserin:

which we love. We love ghosts. We love Ghosts To Magic on this podcast for sure.

Lesley:

Yeah. Mavis. Mavis will be there.

Krisserin:

Yeah. Why a novel in stories? I'm loving it. It's great. And I, I love that there are some chapters that are just like a page,

Lesley:

Right.

Krisserin:

just a, a moment and then we move on. It's brilliant.

Lesley:

Thank you. It evolved. It evolved. I set out to write linked stories. I set out with the very first story about Mavis, which is one, the one I had the strongest idea for. And then I thought, a Secondary's character from that story and put it into the third, pull a secondary character, pull it into the third, and chain them together this way. then once I had them all, I realized that I had overarching themes and I had an actual kind of story arc going through the a hundred years. And I thought, wait a minute, wait a minute. This needs to be knit together further. So I went back and I did, two things I'll call portals and embers and I'll explain them really quickly. But they were techniques that I tried to make this more of a novel than, than linked stories.'cause I think I had the material there, so I wanted to put it together more. The embers are actually a concept that Dr. McKetta came up with because she had read an early draft and she'd seen some of the in-between pieces, and she said, they're like embers. You know, the story stops, but it's some, something's still burning, and you, you blow on it and you get another story. And so they were in between. So I wrote more of those to continue the story, move the story ahead. Or sometimes get up above and look down and say, okay, this is where we were, this is where we're going. This is what you need to know right now. And sometimes it was just me talking to you saying, this is what, this is important right now that you hear this. And so it was a way to connect the stories and connect with the reader and move the action along. the portals were ways that I, that I tied it more together to make it more of a piece, which is, there are many times characters in the early part will have visions. Certain things or descriptions or understand a certain thing that a character later in the book will have the same thing, they're seeing the same thing. One example in an early story, a character thinks he sees a mother and a child walking through the woods eyes aren't very good, but he, and he looks, again, he realizes it's a dough and, and a fawn. The very last story in the book, there's a mother in the snowstorm with a baby and she's looking for shelter and she looks through the snow and she thinks she sees an old man and she clears her eyes and it's actually a buck. So she sees the buck, he sees the doe in the fawn. The, the man, the woman, and the baby. So they go like this through the book and that happens a lot, although, you know, it's nothing readers have to know or find out. But hopefully the recurring images and the recurring colors and recurring scenes and memories, different characters have different, have the same memory in different generations, ties the community together and ties the book together. So I was able, when it was done to put those in to add that layer. by the way, is really fun.

Kelton:

It feels like there's a lot of themes of memory and what you did see and what you didn't see, and ghosts and the like being fully there and being in the background. And a lot of this feels very tied to Halloween to me and spooky. And it was interesting to hear your earlier story about working with your roommate agent, and choosing between election day and Halloween. What, did you already have a love of Halloween then or did that spark it and did that drive this like current of like underworld and overworld for you?

Lesley:

A little bit of both. I did, of course, love Halloween as a kid because I was a kid in the sixties, so I could run around without adults, and it was very dear to my heart and a very, it's a nostalgic feeling when I think about Halloween and it gets dark and the wind kicks up and, you know, you smell those leaves burning and it's like, oh my gosh, this is freedom. It's magic. So there was that in myself, once I got contract for that book and started to research it, it was, it's such a big subject, you know, you don't think about it that way. It's a kid's holiday. Most of us think of it like that, but no, no, no, no. It's about so much more and there's so much history to it and there's so much folklore and, I don't know, popular culture and the way it reflects what we're thinking and doing, it's, it's really a phenomenon more than a holiday Halloween, or at least it's become one. So I got more interested in it as it went around. And as somebody who looks at Halloween, I often found myself on ghost Hunts and talking to people who believe they talk to the dead and, you know, talking to people who believe they are vampires who enjoy dressing up as a zombie and marching with hundreds of other zombies. So I did get out into a lot of alternative cultures and ways of thinking as a researcher, which I found fascinating. So, you know, if that comes into my fiction, it doesn't directly, but I am certainly very comfortable with the other world and thinking about it. I mean, many people don't like to think about death. I, I've been thinking about it so long that it seems. It does not seem like a dark subject to me. You know, so I, there's, I maybe I have a, a, a great flexibility when it comes to the other world. I'm familiar with it.

Kelton:

I think it adds a beautiful layer to the writing.

Krisserin:

It really does. And it's not surprising. I feel like all the stories that I've read that you've written have this current of something beyond the veil of this. Not, not just the life that we're living on earth, but other things pressing upon us, which is really, really nice. Do you have a favorite, fun fact about Halloween? That you wouldn't mind sharing?

Lesley:

Wow.

Krisserin:

Bit of trivia. Something that we can impress people with. Be like, did you know?

Lesley:

Wow. That, that I, I have so many. Halloween facts. I suppose of the ones that people always wanna know about is how old is it? And, you know, you can find little tiny tendrils of it more than 2000 years ago. So a kind of cool thing. And it has to do with, you know, the dark and the time of year and all those things I mentioned that you notice as a kid. I think, um, have, have come into it all this for, for two millennia at least. the fact that it wasn't a children's holiday until 1940 or so is kind of interesting. It was really a, an adult and everybody's, and everybody's holiday. The fact that it was Scottish as well as Irish to start is kind of interesting. The fact that you could stand in the crossroads at midnight and hear the future whispered on the wind is a pretty cool thing.

Krisserin:

I love that. I love that. For our listeners who are working on their first collection or a novel, what would you say is the most important thing you've learned about submitting?

Lesley:

About writing or submitting? About submitting,

Krisserin:

Oh yeah, both.

Lesley:

to not hold back. I mean, submit. Submit. Go to duotrope and submit to something that you'll be accepted in. I think sometimes students, they know this is a really good story. I'm gonna wait for a really good magazine. I've never quite seen that work out for me anyway. It's just, it. You know, keep putting it out there. Do not be discouraged by rejections. Everybody gets them all the time and they're not personal. There is a volume you would not believe out there. This was both good and bad. Like for example, this magazine that I'm reading for now, the last submission period, they got 1000 stories. They published eight. So those odds are awful. However, there are, and hundreds and hundreds of magazines and somebody reads them. It's, and, and I think that you just keep putting it out there. You get your publication, you get a second publication. Pretty soon you're gonna have, will have more publications. You know, if you submit for 30 years and no one takes your work. Rethink that. But I bet you have a good story, you really like send it out. Send it out until somebody will, somebody finally will look at it and say, wait, wait, wait, let's do this one. And it will happen. It will.

Krisserin:

Now that Lake Song is out in the world, I'm sure you're already working on whatever your next project is, but what are you working on now?

Lesley:

I've continued to write short stories and this next batch I'm trying to work in. Animals, and not in a way that you know, animals speak or take on human characteristics, but more that intersection between humans and the things they do that might consider animalistic. Like one story is about a woman who has glaucoma, so she uses her ears like a dolphin would. Echolocating or a bat echolocating because that actually humans actually do that. if you cannot see very well, your ears get much better and some people actually can, figure out where they are by the vibrations of them structures around them. I thought this was fascinating. So I put that into a story. So it's, about a very human person, but with some extraordinary capabilities that are actually realistic rather than surrealistic. So I'm doing that, with a series of stories, different

Krisserin:

You think

Kelton:

right up my alley.

Krisserin:

right up Kelton Sally? Oh yeah.

Lesley:

I can.

Kelton:

I write a lot about animals. Yeah. My, my mom was a wildlife biologist, so I grew up with, strange fauna in the house around me as my siblings. And, it has greatly influenced how I see the world and how I write.

Lesley:

that's.

Krisserin:

When I sent Kelton your stories, I was like, I cannot, you guys like, you're gonna love her writing because you, Kelton and Lesley, you guys both have a lot of commonalities and the topics that you like to write about and, and read about. So, you definitely have some lifelong fans over here, Lesley, we've really, this was so much fun. I could talk for hours and I hope we do end up getting to continue the conversation now that we've had a chance to chat. But thank you so much for your time. This was so fun. Do you have any other parting words of wisdom for our listeners who are just starting out and trying to, you know, get their first thing out there.

Lesley:

nothing other than what I've said. You know, reading a lot, to other writers a lot. Just kind of trying to keep at it. Don't get discouraged. Submit,

Kelton:

Where can, where can our listeners find Lake Song?

Lesley:

Oh, lake Song is on all your online bookstores or, here's a good thing to know. If you order directly from Mad Creek Books, also Ohio State University Press, you put in the Code Lake Capital LAKE when they ask you for a discount code, they will give you 30% off in free shipping. That's better than Amazon.

Krisserin:

Well, Lesley, thank you so much. And where can, Where can they find you? Where can they follow you?

Lesley:

Um, lesleybannatyne.com.

Krisserin:

Amazing. All right. Well, and you're, you're on a book tour right now, right?

Lesley:

Yes, I'm coming to the conclusion of the first part of book tour and it's been fun. I gotta say one of the most fun things about writing a book. Is talking about a book. So I thank you so much for this opportunity because most people don't, you know, you meet on the street or you volunteer with they, they're not gonna ask you questions like you have just asked me. So it's such a pleasure and it's also a pleasure to meet people out in bookstores at book events who come you some sometimes with questions are just curious or you know, maybe they like the cover. It's such a pleasure.

Krisserin:

Well, we will definitely link to your website in the show notes, and thank you so much, Lesley. It's been a, it's been a joy.

Lesley:

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Krisserin:

I emailed Dr. Elizabeth Sharp McKetta. Before we spoke with Lesley, just to let her know like, Hey, thank you so much for introducing me to Lesley's work in your class, and I'm speaking with her and I wanna be her when I grow up. And Dr. McKetta was like, I also wanna be Lesley when I grow up. She's really inspiring. And know, I, I feel like after that conversation. To me, well, first of all, you guys have so much in common, you and Lesley,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

like she is very much a kindred spirit in the things that are interesting to her and the way that she writes. and the fact that she is obsessed with spirits and spooky things and Halloween. But, obviously I've read a bit of her work and I'm halfway through her book, lake song, but how did you find her?'cause this is the first. you kind of have been introduced to her in her writing.

Kelton:

I mean, I found her deeply charming.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

she has such a good attitude. I love that about a person. I love a person with a good, curious attitude. I loved her approach to writing. I love her consideration of place as a driving force and, and almost like omnipresent character. And, I mean, after we got off with her, I was like, I gotta go work on my novel. I went and worked on the novel. I found it quite motivating. I ordered her book too. So I was like, this is what I gotta have in my archive personally. So happy, happy to have met her.

Krisserin:

Her book is so good. It is. It's very humbling to read work like that because it is really good. And what I came away from and what I, loved.'cause I asked this question to Chelsea and I've been thinking about it myself a lot, and that's why I brought it up with Lesley, which is the how do you continue to improve as a writer? And I thought her recommending going to writers' events and listening to writers talk about their work and going to conferences and conventions was deeply helpful because, when you listen to writers talk about their process or you know what they're thinking about, the ideas they're turning over it is inspiring. so you know. I think that that's something that I'm going to look for more of in my life is how can I attend more writers events? How can I meet more writers and be a better, member of the literary community? But I, the most interesting thing is that she doesn't have an agent and she's gonna have to start the querying process. The fact that she, both of her books that she's published were published because she won contests, which of course she did'cause she's an incredible writer. But what an interesting way in for a writer who is trying to break in a non-traditional way,

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

publishing world. so found that hugely inspirational as well.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

there are other ways to, to, to make, make inroads If you don't have an agent, which

Kelton:

Yeah, you just have to, you just have to win.

Krisserin:

you just have to win. have to win. but I think that when you get to a place where you're confident in your work, and that's another thing from the, the Chelsea interview that I was thinking about. She works on it enough where she's, she knows it's good. By the time she's done, she's like, this is good. I'm confident that I've crafted this to the best of my ability. And when you go out and, and submit, I think that you're in a good place because you've done the work. We talk about doing the work, but

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

obviously does the work and she, she's winning.

Kelton:

Yeah, I, I have a lot of respect for that. I feel like a lot of the things I write are like feral cats, you know, like I'm trying to get them

Krisserin:

get

Kelton:

to stay in the house, but they, they just wanna escape on their own time and they're just like running out the door before I can get them in shape. And I know that that's my own impatience, acting as metaphor. But, I have a really hard time waiting on something. When I write an essay, I really like, I'm like, press publish. I don't wanna send this to anybody. You know, I'm like, we're not, we're not sending this to the New York Times or the Guardian. We're just putting this on Substack where no one cares.

Krisserin:

So let's talk about that, because having read something that you've poured over and edited quite a bit, I, I will say that I can tell the difference

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

between the things that

Kelton:

in a good way or a bad way because like, I, Ugh, listen.

Krisserin:

that

Kelton:

Yeah. Yes it does.'cause it, look, it's either leans good or it leans bad, and I feel like I, I just like the things I write so much better when they're not obsessed over.

Krisserin:

I think that the things that you write that are not obsessed over are better.

Kelton:

Yeah. Listen, I fucking know. I know, I know.

Krisserin:

Which is, well, that's what I was saying about the first chapter of my book because I had overwritten it. I over, needed the dough on that chapter. And as I eased into the rest of the novel, it flowed so much better.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

I do think that there is something in like obsessively, which of course we're like, do the work, make it good, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But here we are saying like, ah. Conflicting messages on this week's pod. But, here's my, like, my note, here's my overall note. I think. The beginning of your manuscript proposal has the kind of like, here's what this book is about, right? And

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

the different sections. A lot of that felt very inside baseball to me as someone who doesn't know anything about these topics or terms,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

think for the agents that you're going to query it, they'll probably. Read that and understand every word of it. But for me I was like, I don't know what any of these things mean.

Kelton:

Like what?

Krisserin:

Purely my ignorance. Oh. I mean, just, you know, when you're referencing the other writers that you drew inspiration

Kelton:

Okay. Yeah,

Krisserin:

Is the Green five a thing you made up or is it a thing that exists?

Kelton:

it's something I made up.

Krisserin:

Okay. I just think that some of the language that you're using to describe the positioning of the book feels like you're talking in abstract,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

into the chapters, when it's a little bit more specific, it feels more, to use your word easeful, it feels more alive. Right.

Kelton:

Well, I mean that, but that feedback I can live with, like the proposal itself is just meant to be like, could I sell this? You know? And then if the writing, if the chapters. That's the part I need to feel easeful. I don't need the proposal to feel easeful, especially'cause right now it's like I have a list of three agents where friends are going to send

Krisserin:

Amazing.

Kelton:

proposal and so I, you know, that I'm like, this is a, that's a selling document. And so I agree that document is like gross. Like having a positioning statement

Krisserin:

Gross. I

Kelton:

like listing, listing the famous people I know. Like what a nightmare.

Krisserin:

didn't bother me. I thought that was great, because you're saying like, here's part of the marketing plan for the book. I thought that was great. So here's my question. This is my big note because the part of the book that's like, this is memoir, this is the idea that I wanna bake out into the story. It feels like it's very intentional,

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

then you get to the essays and from, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you've adapted these essays from things that you have written to like match this theme of the memoir. Is that correct?

Kelton:

of them, some. I would say it's 50% new.

Krisserin:

Okay. Okay. Because I feel like the areas where you are trying to match the essay to the memoir are the weakest,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

the, the parts of the essay that are just like you talking about, the house. I love the house as a character. It's incredible. And there are lines in there that I was like, I love this. This is amazing. But it's the parts when you're like, let's map this back to this idea that I'm like, this feels like an effort.

Kelton:

It does, but

Krisserin:

easeful.

Kelton:

effort because it's like, if it's not mapped to the memoir, then it is just a substack. They're just rambly essays about living in the mountains, and you can't sell that if you're not famous.

Krisserin:

Okay, but here's my question for you, because I don't think that's true. My question is, do you wanna write a memoir or do you wanna publish a book of essays? Because I think that you could still have a theme around your book of essays, it could be, I think, a powerful book of essays.

Kelton:

Okay, so the, the, I have a different proposal.

Krisserin:

Well only be, and here's the thing, let me just like couch all of this with the biggest disclaimer that I know nothing about memoir or nonfiction.

Kelton:

will let the listeners, I want the listeners to know. I also sent this proposal to a friend of mine who has a bestselling memoir, and she wants to get into critiquing memoirs as something that she offers professionally, and so she has offered to critique my proposal. For free, just so she can count how many hours it takes her and so she can like establish a working rate to do this kind of thing. And her, her memoir was incredibly marketable. I'm holding back my name, her name, because I, one, I'd like to interview her later in this podcast, but also because, she's doing me a professional service for now that we're still negotiating. But, I'm so curious to hear her balance between if that proposal, if the proposal needs to be that selling document. But the, you know, the other idea that I had was just a book of essays, and it was loosely gonna be called Good Wood. Because the through line of every essay was wood. But that, you know, the thing with that is I kind of capped out at like eight essays, and those essays are not gonna be like, you know, 10,000 words each oh eight is not enough. So I look, I hear you, but I, I'm working with what I have so far. I'm glad most of the writing felt okay and it just felt hamfisted into the concept. But,

Krisserin:

big note.

Kelton:

yeah.

Krisserin:

thing is that like this idea of finding home I think is very powerful and you have

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

places you've called home. Not to say that you need to go off and write about your time living on a sailboat in the Caribbean, although I'm sure that would slap, but the one line that I was like, as I was reading through the beginning of the, of the proposal, the one line that I was like, yes, was the question, what does it take biologically, emotionally, spiritually, for a woman to feel at home in her own life? And I was like, that is an idea that every woman can relate to and can respond to. I had like a, a physical reaction to that'cause I was like, that's something that I want.

Kelton:

I think,

Krisserin:

the other ideas were these almost intangible abstract concepts that I was like, this is cool, this is cool. But then when I read that line I was like, that's me.

Kelton:

yeah, but I think that's what I want the book to answer through those concepts, because the reality is if I just write about living here. Most women would never call this home and they can't find that feeling of home through my feeling of this home because the things I want, you know, where I'm like, I want my hands to freeze in the cold rain while I chuck wood. Like, does that sound like your feeling of belonging?

Krisserin:

Right. But that, that's the difference between a memoir and a book of essays. A memoir is like, I've learned these things. Take these things, apply them. You can apply them to

Kelton:

That's what I wanna do. So when I talk about my hands freezing, for me that is one of those five elements that I bring to life in the book. And the idea is probably that I talk about in like two or three chapters how I experience that. And then the last chapter in that section is more like about finding that in your own life.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

I, I think that is what sells the concept. I agree with you that one sentence is the backbone of the book, but if I'm just writing about being like a mountain woman, it's like then that only appeals to mountain women,

Krisserin:

right. But that line is almost the last thing you say

Kelton:

right?

Krisserin:

go into

Kelton:

I think you're right. I do need to highlight. Highlight that line.

Krisserin:

The parts of the book that the, of the chapters are the stronger are the ones you're talking about your personal experience.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

It's the ones that you're more infused into. So again, I think that it is. It is hard. Like this is hard work and as you're, I was reading, I'm like, damn, this is hard work, Kelton. You're gonna have your work cut out for you. And I'm not saying that you're not capable of it, I know you are, but I do think as you're thinking about like, how do I make these essays into a memoir? the work that is involved is gonna be pretty intense.

Kelton:

I better get a six figure deal.

Krisserin:

Fuck. Yeah. Those are, that's my like, overarching note. And then I have like other little notes in there. But, I think that the way that you've written the proposal at the top, like I said, I don't know, it's like, who's the, who's the market for this book? If it's for people who loved braiding sweetgrass and that this is like their thing, which I feel like you do wanna be on the shelf next to those people,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

but then. Can you be on the shelf next to those people and be broadly marketable every woman? That's an open que maybe

Kelton:

That's the goal.

Krisserin:

could do it. I think you could do it.

Kelton:

I can do it with the right

Krisserin:

the,

Kelton:

agent.

Krisserin:

the marrying of the two because it's very heavy on the, like, I'm an expert in these things.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

we get to the things that are more related to you, that's where me as someone who's not deeply involved in that area of nonfiction, really responded to the work, the

Kelton:

I think that's good. That's good. I think that's good. I can swallow that feedback. Um, uh, let's talk about our goals. For this week, because mine come right off of this, I was meant to be heading toward New Mexico tomorrow for a getaway, camping with the the boy and the hub. But he's sick. So I'm gonna spend all this weekend just taking care of the child. And that's it. So.

Krisserin:

so Ben can recover.

Kelton:

Yeah. Um, you know, so far, like we've done a really good job of managing woods, not getting sick. I'm happy with him to get a cold from daycare, but I don't need him getting the flu right now. I don't wanna deal with that. So I think a like a couple more days for Ben to recover and like maybe. You know, woods and I can like go to the hot springs or something and, and do something kinda magical for ourselves. But it does mean I don't have any childcare for the next Friday, Saturday, Sunday this next three, four, today, four days. It's just a lot of me and baby, which is great. I'm gonna do a lot of hiking. The leaves are pretty much all gone from the trees here. There's a lot of snow up high. So I'd like to hike up really high and get, touch some snow for the first time this winter season. And just get into some deep inspiration and think about the essays that I want to include in the proposal, in the memoir, and maybe do some narration out on the trail. I am hosting session three for me tonight.

Krisserin:

What's your plan

Kelton:

My plan. My plan is to be loosey goosey. I wanna be loosey goosey this weekend. I have a lot of, a lot of you notes. I, I just am tired. I haven't been sleeping the last like two and a half weeks. So I'm like, you know what? I sent out the proposal to who I needed to. I'm taking a week off from the newsletter. The plan is to just think and not to commit anything to a, a deadline, a word count, anything. I've earned it. So,

Krisserin:

You have,

Kelton:

and we're halfway through the class. Tonight is session three. And that is going smoothly and I wanna start thinking about what the winter session looks like. So I'm, I'm just gonna let my brain swirl like a fresh winter storm.

Krisserin:

I love it.

Kelton:

What's your goal?.

Krisserin:

My goal is just to keep on keeping on, just keep up early. I have continued to speak my book out loud as I am revising, so I'm gonna keep doing that and, hopefully by the time we meet next week, I will have finished. least I've gotten through the rest of the second book

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

already written not feel like I'm on the edge of a cliff with no idea of what I'm going to do next. Hopefully I'll have some inkling of what's the next step that I'm going to take in the story. and I'm not so scared.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

for the week is to end it not being too scared.

Kelton:

Good. What a dream.

Krisserin:

What a dream. What a dream. So that's my goal for the week, and I, I hope that you, no, I was asking you what your plan was because after reading your memoir, I don't know how, but I got onto like, again. Everest, TikTok. It's like, I'm getting all this content about avalanches and I read your story about your neighbor. And I'm like, Kelton lives in a dangerous place. And you know, I am very much, guilty of telling my children to be careful all the time, all the time. And so I have to think about that personally in my life.

Kelton:

think that that,

Krisserin:

now. I'm like, Kelton's out here. I was like thinking in my head as I was reading this, like Kelton's hiking all the time by herself and her baby.

Kelton:

oh, but.

Krisserin:

careful.

Kelton:

I am incredibly capable and very prepared. You know, I, I did miss the point that you saying what's your plan is That is exactly what I say to Woods all the time. What's your plan? What's your plan, pal, where are your feet going? But you know, when, when I'm out in the wilderness here, you know, I have my, my Garmin spot. I have extra provisions and water, I have extra layers. I have rain protective stuff in case we get caught in a storm. I have waterproof matches, like Ben and I are real scouts about being out in the wilderness and that, you know, for us it's like. The more you carry, it's just like, the better the workout it is. So like, I don't worry about like, oh, this is too much stuff to bring. I'm like, bring it all. What, what is it gonna do? Make me stronger? Oh no. the hiking we're doing now is, is really, really. It's high, but it's easy. And there's like, there is one trail that I had wanted to explore further and was asking a friend I knew who would've found it by now about it, and she was like, oh, it really cliffs out at the end. So if you're gonna bring the baby, make sure that you also bring Ben. And I was just like, I love people here. They're not like, oh, it cliffs out. Don't bring the baby. They're like. It cliffs out. Bring an extra person and the baby.

Krisserin:

I took Ren to the park in Calabasas, it's like right down the street from Sabine school and the cross country team was there and I was watching them run and I'm like, oh, there must be trails around here. There's like, some nature reserves snaking through the housing areas there. And so I was like, let's go. Like we're trying to kill time. Let's go on a walk on this little trail and it's not whatever. And there was a lizard in the middle of the trail. Just like about Lost her mind because I had just finished telling her, oh, we got like, look, there's a sign that says be careful of rattlesnakes. I tried to to like, it wouldn't move. It was in the middle of the trail. So I kinda like tried to gently nudge it with my foot and it like jumped at me and we both were like, I. I was sobbing and I was like, this is embarrassing. I grew up in the desert walking around by myself all the time, but I can't even take my 7-year-old on a little nature, walk on a very well drawn, like, drawn path.

Kelton:

God.

Krisserin:

know. Kelton does it with a baby man.

Kelton:

Yeah. I keep telling Woods when he is in the backpack'cause he knows the sounds for bear and for cat. And so I'm like, if you see a bear or a cat, you make this sound.'cause I'm like, he's much more likely with his, you know.

Krisserin:

up, he's up

Kelton:

Innocence. Yeah. To like spot a mountain lion and I'm like, you tell mama if you see that lion, okay, we've got a protocol to follow.

Krisserin:

Oh my God. Kelton, here's the thing, because I know how dangerous. It can be. I'm like, I'm good. Whereas I feel like I would almost rather be a little ignorant and just go off into the wilderness. But those are the people who die. Yeah, go like, here's my thing. I'll happily go on a hike with someone who is I, my, me, myself, by myself, or like try to prepare on my own. I would probably be like, eh. I don't know if this is a good idea, but if I come and visit you, I'll go on a hike with you because I'll be like, I can just turn my brain off

Kelton:

I can't wait.

Krisserin:

Alright, Kelton. Well good luck. I hope

Kelton:

Relaxing,

Krisserin:

A relaxing week, and to everyone else out there, you know where to find us. Send us an email at official pen pals pod@gmail.com. Follow us on. of the social networks at Pen Pals Pod, and I hope everyone has a wonderful week writing.

Kelton:

Happy writing.

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Kelton Wright

Co-host
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Krisserin Canary

Co-host