Pen Pals

Olivia Muenter on Book Deals, Big Five Rejections, and Why Success Doesn't Cure Imposter Syndrome

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 2 • Episode 7

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Krisserin's fighting through the darkness of her 5 AM garage writing sessions while Kelton navigates competing feedback on her memoir proposal. But this week they're joined by their third Season 2 guest: Olivia Muenter, USA Today bestselling author of "Such a Bad Influence," co-host of the Bad On Paper podcast, and Pen Pals superfan. Olivia's here to talk about her wildly unconventional path to publication—and why landing a book deal didn't cure her imposter syndrome like she thought it would.

The trio discusses the challenges of generating new material after months of revision (Krisserin hasn't written new words in over a year), the importance of curating beautiful writing spaces (taper candles can fix everything, according to Olivia), and why rest is productive. Olivia's daily routine—journaling first, then tackling the most creative work in the morning, with a brain-dump journal that has "absolutely changed her life"—offers a template for sustainable creative practice.

Plus: Krisserin moves from revision to terrifying new material, Kelton wrestles with contradictory feedback on her memoir proposal (more voice versus more market research), and Olivia plans her first self-hosted writing retreat in the Catskills while finishing her proposal for book three. Through their different writing styles and career paths, all three writers circle back to the same truth: the only real measure of success is that you keep going, no matter who rejects you.

Pre-order Olivia's upcoming novel "Little One" (releases February 3rd): https://www.littlebrown.com/titles/olivia-muenter/little-one/9780316594561/

Learn more about Olivia:
Website & Newsletter: https://oliviamuenter.substack.com/
Bad On Paper Podcast: https://badonpaperpodcast.com/
"Such a Bad Influence": https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/739425/such-a-bad-influence-by-olivia-muenter/

Recommended Reading from Olivia:

  • "Night Watching" by Tracy Sierra
  • "Tilt" by Emma Petit
  • "Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance" by Alison Pac

Write to us:
officialpenpalspod@gmail.com

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton:

Hi, Krisserin.

Krisserin:

Hi, Kelton.

Kelton:

Hi Olivia.

OLIVIA:

Hi.

Kelton:

So

OLIVIA:

I'm so excited.

Kelton:

listeners, we have an amazing guest today. Olivia Muenter is with us olivia is a listener of the podcast, so she knows how this works. Olivia, I'm gonna just. Read your intro back to you. Olivia Muenter. Thank you and welcome. You are the author of the USA Today Instant Bestseller,"such a Bad Influence". You're also the co-host of The Bad On Paper Podcast, which I love and you all should be listening to. And your second novel, little one is available for pre-order. Now, Olivia's been published in Glamour, birdie, bustle, Brides and more, and I found her through her most personal writing on her weekly newsletter that you can read at oliviamuenter.substack.com, which we'll link in the show notes where she share shares about her life, her work, her incredible home, her amazing fashion sense, and her great ethics. Honestly, it's part of why I love you. You have really like nice values.

OLIVIA:

Oh gosh, that's, that's, I wish I could just like frame that and listen to it back, you know, like just thank you so much. Also, Pen Pals Super fan. I am, if I am a huge fan, truly like I tell everyone about it, but I'm so excited to be here.

Kelton:

We're really excited to have you. We've never done this with a guest, but because Olivia is familiar with the format, we wanted to go through the goals we set for ourselves last week with Olivia. so Krisserin, remind us what were your goals for last week?

Krisserin:

Well, thankfully you wrote them down in our little document that we keep because I, forgot them. My, my goals were just Yeah, course. My goals were just to, to, um, oh, I remember my goals were to finish revising the last. Part of the second book that I've been working on, hopefully start getting to the part where I'm actually creating new material. But you wrote, don't be scared.

Kelton:

That was the core thing I took away from Krisserin's goals last week is that it was like, don't be scared.

Krisserin:

I was moving from revision into actually writing, and I have, I was thinking, I've been thinking about it this week. I have not created new material so long. It's been probably over a year since I've actually written new words and haven't been just. You know, picking over sentences that I wrote an age ago. So it's been really stressful and I like go to bed at night thinking about what I possibly could write the next day. And I am definitely a pantser and I, I haven't, I've like lightly thought about. Little things and how they're going to resolve themselves. But right now I feel like I'm playing connect the dots because I don't really know gonna happen. Like I know what the end looks like and I know where I'm at right now, I'm trying to like Pacman style, get to the end bit by bit. And it's been hard. It's been really stressful. I.

Kelton:

Olivia, you're like sort of in the center of Krisserin's and i's writing styles. Mine is just write it fast and publish it weekly and Krisserin's is write it quietly in the background and tell no one for ages. Whereas you're like, you're working on these huge publishing projects, but you're also publishing a substack all the time, so like you do keep your writing fresh even when you're just revising.

OLIVIA:

Yeah, I try. I, I don't know. I try, it's funny because I think a lot of times when I listen, I feel like I am between you two also, like mindset wise sometimes, which is, it makes it really fun to listen'cause I get so much out of what both of you say. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like I swing between a lot of different modes, like fast and quick, not really editing it back to, you know, very slow, tell no one until I have to. It keeps it, it keeps it interesting. I guess

Kelton:

I like that. I mean, my, my approach this week, my goals, Krisserin, if you remember, were to not write anything. My goal was to relax. Um, After, you know,

OLIVIA:

a good goal.

Kelton:

pushing and you need to have that goal sometimes. Like I, everything in my Capricorn body pushes against it, but rest is productive. It is a fertile ground in which things grow. So I was just like, don't do anything extra. it was like, I'm still hosting the class. I'm still doing all this client work, but I took a week off the newsletter, which is always so relaxing for me now that it's been over four years of two essays a week. Like when I take a whole week off, I'm like, oh, oh, I can feel it in my bones.

OLIVIA:

I don't know how you do that. Like I used to do a personal essay every week and I just, I ran out of like feelings and experiences I think. Or maybe I just, I don't know. It's so hard, like it's so hard to do that and I admire that so much, but you do need rest. It's true.

Kelton:

Yeah, well, I also, I had a kid which really refills that well on personal experiences, so.

OLIVIA:

that. Yeah, I imagine that'll do that.

Krisserin:

I can't write a personal essay to save my life. So I admire the heck out of both of you because I'm like, oh, I can't even imagine if I would sit down to think about something to, I'm sure there are things, but I repress them, you know, as any,

OLIVIA:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

my fiction.

OLIVIA:

I was gonna ask you whether you think it's like, um, I know a lot of people they say, I could never be that vulnerable, or I could never expose myself in that way. Is it, is it that, or is it more just like, oh, that's not where my skillset is.

Krisserin:

It's a great question. I feel like I am just a coward. You know where Kelton's very brave and you are very brave to put your guys', you know, thoughts and feelings out there. I think that I would probably really struggle with crafting an essay that I felt truly encapsulated how I, I felt about something without being very concerned about how other people were gonna think about it. Which is why I also really like weird about posting videos of myself talking to camera with this, the exception of this podcast. But I, I'm talking to you guys, so it's different, or even taking a selfie. I'm just very self-conscious

OLIVIA:

I get it. Like every time I listen back to about on paper, I'm like. Just thinking of all the, speaking of perception, I'm like, okay, how is that gonna come off and how is this? And yeah, I, I get it.

Krisserin:

I do want to get to a place where I can write essay and, you know, someday, and I, we've talked a little bit about this idea that I have to write an essay about the place where I grew up tell stories about real people who live there and my experiences with them. But if I, you know, as a sign of personal growth, I hope to someday be able to write about myself. I think it might take some time. I think I might need to be like my sixties or seventies, and that's okay with me.

Kelton:

think you'll also find that when push comes to shove and you do write that essay that people just don't care that much. You know,

Krisserin:

Of course I'm not nearly as important

Kelton:

even if you are, you know, when you write a personal essay, like the freeing part of that is it's how you feel, especially if you're talking about things within like the very small bubble of your life. If you're not tackling societal issues, if you're just like, this is how the logs in my house make me feel. No one's like, okay, well actually, if you did a little more research about the type of tree it had been, you would realize they should make you feel this way. Like that, like that doesn't happen in the kind of writing that I do.

OLIVIA:

It is true.

Krisserin:

someone out there would make that point.

OLIVIA:

There is like, I always think that with personal essay, there is this level of, it's almost like protection that you don't get in fiction because I think people are, are like, okay, well that's their experience. You know, I'm not gonna show up in the comments and be like, how dare you feel this way about your body image? You know? Like that's not happening. But with fiction, I think people think, oh, it should be different. You know, automatically, always. So. It does feel like you're in this little bubble of like, it's just, it's your truth. And people do recognize and appreciate that. I think.

Kelton:

I think we need to dive into some of your writing about this. Such a bad influence is such a fun thriller because it's written through sort of like a multimedia experience. It's both pros and, like Reddit forums and emails and text messages. And it's very like, it feels like being in like a modern life.'cause that is how that you are absorbing information and communicating with your friends and like you lean on all these themes of online identity and performance and we're obviously, we're talking about how we straddle that line right now. Like are you influenced by having this public persona and then going into your fiction world.

OLIVIA:

Yes, certainly it was particularly difficult with such a bad influence because when it came out I was, at that point I had started like transitioning out of being in a kind of traditional influencer role. So for anyone that doesn't know me, I was an editor and then I was a freelance writer. And while I was freelance, I started building my following and supplementing that work with brand partnerships and affiliate links, which turned out to be much easier and much more lucrative than freelance writing. So I pretty quickly ended up, you know, being, I always call it like a capital I influencer. When I started writing such about influence, that was a huge part of my career. By the time it came out, I would say maybe less so, I had decided to step away, but. The meta experience of like being very online, writing a book about being very online, being an influencer, writing a book critical of influencers, but also critical of the criticism that influencers get. You know, it's, it was all a bit of a, can I curse on this? I don't. Oh, okay. It was all a bit of a mind fuck, uh, to be, to be frank. But I think also it was, I don't know, you know, you worry that people aren't gonna take you seriously because of something you've done in the past, or every, every insecurity, I guess, is amplified when you have an online presence in some way. I think,

Kelton:

Yeah. Do

OLIVIA:

I don't know if that answers your question actually.

Kelton:

Yeah, do. Were you worried that people wouldn't take your book seriously because you'd been an influencer?

OLIVIA:

Yes. Yeah. And I think. I think part of that is internalized misogyny in a lot of ways, because I never liked saying I'm an influencer. I felt so cringey about it. I felt like it wasn't a quote, real job. And at the same time, you know, that phase of my career and my life is really the only reason I had the space financially to be able to sit down and start writing fiction. Like I wouldn't have had the ability to do that if I wasn't able to step away from other more time consuming freelance projects because I, you know, was linking my outfits every day. So yeah, it's, it's, it's layered.

Krisserin:

At the same time, having a platform probably really helped you when you did wanna go and query and find an agent and sell the book, right? So it's a bit of a double-edged sword.

OLIVIA:

Well, that was a huge part of it because my experience publishing such about influence is very non-traditional. And actually, I met my editor before my agent. I met my editor because I was living in Philly, she was living in Philly. I was in my prime influencer era. So I shared absolutely every second of my life. And that year, that was 2021, I had started writing fiction and I just absolutely loved every second of it. And I shared about it all the time and how I was writing this book, and I didn't know what would happen with it, but I loved it. And she saw that and she emailed me in January, 2022 and she said, Hey, I'm in Philly. I work at this small publisher, small independent publisher called Quirk. I saw your writing a novel. Can I read what you're writing? And. It snowballed from there. So in a lot of ways it's literally because of my platform that I ended up with the deal for such a bad influence, which I am incredibly grateful for, but also you can imagine made me feel like any imposter syndrome I had, which I will have for the rest of my life, I'm sure just through the roof. So yes, that's, that's my non-traditional path.

Kelton:

I had no idea. And it's such a good testament to like talking about your work. Putting yourself out there. I mean, she also put herself out there. She was just like, Hey, you don't know me. I wanna read it. So the brazenness that comes with both of those sides. Krisserin and I are obviously so enthralled by what the process of getting published, because we're still on the other side of it. I, I published a book when I was like 26 with thought catalog publishing. I wouldn't recommend going that route, but, uh, wanna know, like, you know, what happened then? Like, she loved your book. It's how did you go through the process of getting an agent?

OLIVIA:

She asked to see what I was working on. I had quite literally never shown anyone my fiction writing in the world. I was used to sending out essays every week. I had been an editor, I had been a freelance writer. But fiction was. Essentially completely new to me other than a one-off class. I took my sophomore year of college. And so you can imagine like sending that to her just like I wanted to die. And it took her actually a really long time to get back to me. And that book I sent her is actually the book that is going to be my second novel little one, which comes out in February. And we ended up developing such a bad influence together. So once we decided we wanted to do that, she introduced me to like a handful of agents and I basically had to query them. So some of them rejected me, some of them said yes. And I sent them sort of both projects. I said, okay, I have this thing, I have this other thing. I want you to like both of them. A lot of people were like, absolutely not. And at that point, little one was like in the roughest shape. I can, like I knew that at the time. Now I'm horrified that anyone has laid eyes on it. But I found my agent that way. She was also in Philly, and we met, and I am so thankful every day that like this weird series of events led me to her because she's like perfect for me in every way. And I love her. But that's, yeah, it's a very strange series of events.

Kelton:

One of our questions, you know, on, on the backend was like, what, how was the process different for such a bad influence versus little one? And it's funny to hear that they were actually working in tandem from the beginning. and

OLIVIA:

Yes,

Kelton:

little one was around first. So

OLIVIA:

yes

Kelton:

cool.

OLIVIA:

was. I was a very different person when I started writing it in 2021, but I, you know, I believed in it and like I went back to it and I kept going back to it. And there's something really, really powerful about that. And for that book, after Such a Bad Influence came out, we went through the traditional submission process to Big five publishers and yeah, that was, that was an emotional minefield as well.

Krisserin:

I would love to hear what that was like.

Kelton:

why.

Krisserin:

you can talk about.

OLIVIA:

Well, I think, I mean, just to get into like the emotional process of it, I think I had such insecurity about such a bad influence, both because of how the deal came about, also because I thought they only gave me this because I have a platform or it's only successful because I have a platform. It's not a big five, you know, it was a very small deal. And on about, on paper, you know, we're interviewing these people who have these huge platforms, these massive deals. My co-host Becca had had a very, the most dream-like, you know, public first novel submission process you can have. And I thought, well, you know, we're gonna go out and sub with this book that I've been working on for years and years. That is like my child, you know, I feel so emotionally attached to, I've put everything I have into it, but I already have a track record. You know, I have a successful book that's come out and I have a platform I've proved myself and it's gonna sell, and I'm gonna never feel insecure ever again. You know, it's gonna sell to a big five and I'm gonna be like, I am a real writer. And it's not just because I have a platform. And yeah, I mean, I had many more rejections than I had interest, like, which is normal. But I think it was, you know, it's humbling when you're getting like. 12 rejections in a span of a week that are all for different reasons, it feels crushing. Which we all know if we're writers, right? But I think, I thought it would validate me in such a way that I would like never doubt myself ever again. And it just, it didn't, and I'm so grateful for my deal and I'm so grateful for where I ended up. But no, it didn't cure my imposter syndrome at all. Like, I still think I like tricked them, you know, all the time.

Krisserin:

Glad you know that never goes away.

OLIVIA:

I'm, I always think it will. It does not.

Krisserin:

convers. Did you have that conversation with your agent? Because I've heard writers talk about that, where their agent will ask them, do you only wanna hear the good news or do you wanna hear everything? Because it can be so emotionally crushing when you're getting the inevitable rejections that come when you are submitting.

OLIVIA:

Yes, we did have that conversation and my agent does, which is what I think like a normal thing. She has a spreadsheet and she can put the exact quotes from like why people said no, or she can hide that from me and I can just see it was a no. And so I was just refreshing constantly. Actually. I always think about, I did a book event for such about influence in Portland, Maine, and it was the most gorgeous, like weather. It was, I love Portland. I was so happy to be there. And I was on submission and the rejections had just started coming in. So I was literally just walking around the streets of Portland, Maine, refreshing the spreadsheet, like crying at different places.'cause it's just, it feels, it's the worst feeling to just be like, I put everything I had into this. And I mean, you guys know, but I, if I did it again, which I'm sure I will need to at, at some point, um, I would not look at any of the feedback because it's not helpful at all. And I still remember some of the rejections, like word for word.

Krisserin:

The book that I'm working on now that we're gonna be putting out to for submission is the third book that I've written, but my little ones is my Gustafson and novel. It's my multi-generational story that I put a lot of my, family history and a lot of emotional, weight into. So I completely I can understand how that would feel. It would be pretty hard for me, I think, to go through that same process. But I'm so interested to know what the process of working with the editor for little ones was like, considering it is a book that is so important to you did you pass edits back and forth? Were there substantial changes that you made? What did that look like?

OLIVIA:

Well, yes, there were, were lots of changes. but I love my editor and I feel like I've just hit the jackpot that I've loved both of my editors so, so much. But I think one of the reasons that I'm really, really thankful that I did such bad influence first and I went through that process is that I, I developed a bit of a thick skin with the, the precious nature of your first novel and your first publication experience, because I had this other novel. But ultimately I put it aside and I worked on such a bad influence and I love that just as much, you know? And to me it was this moment of thinking I will make the changes. I will go through the rejections, I will small deal, big deal, deal in the middle. Like it doesn't matter to me this is what I want to be doing in whatever form. And so when I got to little one and I was working with, a new editor, I, I feel like I was just better able to roll with the punches and to absorb feedback and to. Be patient and it's all hard. But, we went through quite a few drafts. I think the first big round of edits I did in, it took me maybe a month, but I ended up adding like 8,000 words. So I submitted it at maybe 77,000 words and it ended up around, I think 80, 88 or 89. So we added a lot, which, I am really grateful that I subbed it kind of a lower word count.

Kelton:

I'm curious both such a bad influence and little one really center around sisters. Do you have sisters? Are they reading your books?

OLIVIA:

Do you wanna guess?

Kelton:

I mean, my guess would naturally be that like, yes, you have sisters because you're drawn to write about it, but do you,

OLIVIA:

No. I have a brother, a younger brother. I will say my mom has seven sisters, so I have observed so many different types of sister relationships, but actually in both of my books, they didn't start out as sisters. Like they were more distant and then in revisions, they just kind of, it made sense to bring them closer together. I think, like to get really kind of like, I don't know, therapy speak about it. I think for me, the sister thing comes a lot from just i'm just very prone to comparison and like I'm competitive is another way to put it. But like I think I have always grown up feeling like I was not good enough and my natural inclination would be to compare myself or to compete. And I think a lot of times that was was with friends or with peers and never because I didn't want something for them. It's always because I felt insecure. But I think the sister relationship is an interesting way to like mirror that comparison and competition and tension that I sometimes feel with the world, if that makes sense.

Kelton:

Yeah, that's actually really lovely. I love also that you can have a bunch of sister relationships in your life that are not your sisters, that you can observe from a safe distance, and not be accused of dragging someone through the mud.

OLIVIA:

Well listen, there's always parents in my books and I have parents, and so I have heard feedback, often, but that's probably another podcast episode.

Kelton:

I mean, I did tell my mom about the novel I'm writing. I'm like, listen, I don't even know if I'll ever finish this novel, but I need you to know that the mom in this book is really bad. it's a plot point. It's a device. It is not a reflection, is not a book about you. This is fiction just to like

OLIVIA:

Yeah,

Kelton:

the goodwill in early.

OLIVIA:

I've certainly had that conversation too.

Krisserin:

I wrote a short story that made my mom very uncomfortable because I used things from her life in it. And it's hard because it's like my mom is the oldest of eight kids also, has four sisters and three brothers. So you do learn a lot from the, those types of really large families. There's a lot of dynamics that are very interesting there. But I have to ask you, Olivia, what's your, what's your astrological sign?

OLIVIA:

I won't make you guess. Again, I'm a Pisces.

Krisserin:

I knew it.

OLIVIA:

I am, I'm not like a big astrology person, but I do identify with, the Pisces traits very much.

Krisserin:

Yeah,

Kelton:

a Pisces.

Krisserin:

that, that com, that competitive nature is very Pisces.

OLIVIA:

Is it

Krisserin:

But

OLIVIA:

My husband is also a Pisces.

Krisserin:

from my experience.

OLIVIA:

We're very different. So that's always been interesting to me. But, um, yeah, I very much feel connected to my Pisces self. I don't know if I'd want sisters though, to be honest.

Krisserin:

Oh, I mean, I'm glad I'm the only, I'm the baby of the family too. But I have two daughters, so there is this natural inclination to compare. They're very different. Very different in they act, how they look, they're what they're good at. And it's very easy to say like, oh, well Sabine's this way, and Ren's this way. And I have to stop myself from doing that'cause it's not nice and it's not helpful. But it does happen. And similar to what you were saying, my mom is the eldest of eight and so she raised all of her siblings on top of, you

OLIVIA:

Wow.

Krisserin:

Being one of many girls in the house. And so I grew up like, you know, I have 30 something first cousins there's like 50 kids that my grandmother's responsible for. And you do see these dynamics and it is interesting. Sisters are very, have very interesting dynamics for sure. So I'm sure it's ripe for, for fiction.

OLIVIA:

Yes, I totally agree.

Kelton:

It's also the, some of the relationships in such a bad influence in particular, where the mom at times really feels less like a mother and more like another sibling that needs management in the house. So there's a lot of those dynamics playing out. Are, do you reflect any of those themes and little one, what do we have to look forward to?

OLIVIA:

Yes, there's definitely a strong presence of parents who have affected their children in pretty intense ways. That's a a through line. I love my parents to be clear, mom and dad, if you're listening, but I think that I love writing about the, the ways that we're raised just carries through, you know, and the ways that it's like impossible to separate yourself from that sometimes. And so that's definitely a big part of little one. I think not so much competition or comparison is in the sister relationship in little one, but. I really like thinking and writing about this idea of like, being in the same boat with someone, like the, the desire to like find someone who's the same as you and what it feels like when someone rejects something that you love or reject. Something that you feel makes you feel safe and how it forces you to like really contend with what you want and what you need and, and also the ways that all of that plays into like community and group think and cult.

Kelton:

Totally. I'm excited for little one. Will you give us like the two line pitch?

OLIVIA:

Sure. I don't know if it's two lines, but I'll do my best. Uh, it's a dual time. Two hours now. Uh, it's a dual timeline novel about Catherine who grows up in an extreme wellness community, cult run by her father. And so in the past timeline, we see her there and all the things that she likes and dislikes about it. And then in the present timeline, we meet her as an independent, successful adult living in New York City with a, a very, as I said, independent life. And a journalist comes out of the woodwork and starts to ask her questions about how she grew up and the cult that she was raised in. And, all her secrets come to light.

Kelton:

I love a secret. I'm excited for this. The book comes out in February, right?

OLIVIA:

Yes, February 3rd.

Kelton:

Perfect. Moody winter writing. Speaking of setting a mood, Olivia, your house. I'm so obsessed with the pictures of your little writing cabin and your desk and like you just have such like a aesthetic approach to writing. Will you talk to me a little about how real that is?

OLIVIA:

I mean, like, I have a, like a

Krisserin:

How real that is, Kelton?

OLIVIA:

Bike behind me right now, so I know it's not like the most aesthetic thing.

Kelton:

But you know, it's like sometimes I feel like when I am working on a problem with any of my writing, if I can make working on it, beautiful. It makes working on it easier. so when I see some of the things in your space, you have such great taste and it's so beautifully curated, how much does that reflect in your writing do you have an alternate path as an interior designer you're not telling us about.

OLIVIA:

No, no, I mean, thank you. That's so flattering. I feel the same way about your space, by the way, but

Kelton:

Thank you.

OLIVIA:

I've always just liked things, you know, I've liked colors and texture and old things and little spaces, and it's just always made me excited and happy to be alive. And so I'm really in this phase of realizing I'm an adult with free will and I can create these, these spaces and I can go to Staples and buy a gigantic cork board for an obscene amount of money. I don't know if you've been in Staples lately, but they're really just pricing things out of this world anyway. I can do all of this and it makes me so happy and so. I just, I like it, you know, I like my little bowl of seashells and my candles and it's simple, you know? And so I'm like, why shouldn't I prioritize that? And I'm, I'm, I feel really lucky to have spaces where I can make them my own in that way. And yeah, I love sitting at my desk every day. I do. I love it. And it's just mine, you know, and that feels really, really nice.

Kelton:

So what's the pie chart of an Olivia Day? How is your time dedicated and spread out?

OLIVIA:

I usually spend the first two to three hours, I would say of the day, working on the most creative stuff first. So I journal and then I do whatever, the most important book project work is. So if that's drafting or revising right now I'm trying to get a proposal ready for book three. So that's all I think about day and night. And I work on that first. Then I'll usually try to make some time to exercise, eat lunch, try to get some fresh air, and then usually the later part of the afternoon is podcast stuff or substack stuff, or promo stuff. A combination of all of that. I guess it's not that complicated or interesting, actually.

Kelton:

Oh, but it sounds so nice. It's like just working on like the projects that you pouring yourself into is such a dream state.

OLIVIA:

I feel very lucky. I, I really do.

Krisserin:

Do you have a ritual around that morning time when you're, you're doing your most creative work?

OLIVIA:

Not, I mean, I like to make a nice coffee, usually like my second or third of the day. I like to play music that makes me feel inspired in some way on my speaker, in my office. I journal, like I said, I have a, a writing journal that I've been using for the past maybe year and a half. And it has just absolutely changed my life to have a dedicated space where I just brain dump the many, many, many, many worries and ideas and dreams and excitements that come with this career. And to put that all in paper before I go to the work is like very, very important to me. And I also tend to read, like before I go into my office, which I find really helpful. It's pretty simple actually.

Kelton:

Who's in your reading pile right now?

OLIVIA:

I am reading a completely unhinged book right now by Kristen King called a, a Good Person. I think it comes out in the spring and it is like the most deeply unhinged, as I said, unlikeable character I've ever read, and I love it. I'm like, make bad decisions. I like it. It's so good. I, I'm only a quarter into it, but I'm really loving it.

Kelton:

Okay. Well, we'll add her to our TBR list for next year. I love a good cover. Actually, I, I wanna hear a little about your covers, I have no idea what the process is for that. Every once in a while I get served on one of the social media platforms, a reel of someone who designs book covers, and they'll be like, here's the brief and here's five covers. I designed for it, and every time I'm like, oh, these four are garbage, but this is the one that sells. I have such strong opinions about it. I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna be annoying if this ever happens to me.

OLIVIA:

It's, it's a weird thing because it takes this moment of, like, you, it's hard to see the forest for the trees. You're looking every little detail in such a intense way. You know everything about the book. It has to be this, this certain thing. You've thought about it for your whole life. What is this gonna look like? And then you get it and you're like, yeah, that's nice. But it takes a minute to click into place. You know, like it's hard to. To explain maybe, but, it's been a bit different for, for both of my books. And the, the paperback of such bad influence has a different cover as well. So I've actually had three, but for my most recent book, they just sent me the cover and they were like, this is it. We've come to this conclusion, it's this. And it was, it had a different font. But they were like, we've talked to sales, we've talked to marketing. There's a lot of different people involved that aren't you like before you see it, at least in my experience. And, and so I talked to my agent and I tell her all the things that I don't necessarily wanna tell my editor. Like, oh, I'm worried about this. Or Does it look too? I don't know. At one point I thought it looked too gender neutral. I wanted it to be clear. It's a book about women for women and I mean, men can read my book if you want, but I probably not for you as much. So stuff like that, I'll run by my agent and then she sort of helps us put it into like a, a nice little package to send back to the, to the editor. But ultimately I think I've just learned you kind of just have to be like they know best, but if there's something you feel really strongly about, of course pushback. Like I didn't like the font at first and we went through three or four iterations and I also asked to see the other options'cause I knew there were other ones and they were like, well we don't usually do that because if you fall in love with one that we don't, want, it's like sort of a bad situation, which I understand. But they did send me one of the rejects and it helped me understand why they thought this one was better. The way they pitched this cover was they wanted it to be like Paper Palace with an edge, which is, I love Paper Palace. It's one of my favorite books. But I was like, oh, actually that is exactly what it is. Good job.

Kelton:

You're like, wow, okay, so I see why you have a salary for this.

OLIVIA:

Yeah. Oh, this is your job. Yeah, that's right. I know why.

Kelton:

Speaking of our distinct jobs, something that Krisserin and I have been talking about a lot this season is authorial voice. Obviously that is the key role of you as your writer is having this vibe essentially of an Olivia Muenter book. Do you ever think about that when you're writing? Has that ever come up where someone talks about your authorial style?

OLIVIA:

You know, I, I really liked the conversations you guys have been having about this because it's something, I don't really think about that often, but I will say, I. I've been working on my third book for this entire year, basically. And when I sent it to my agent, I was a bit worried'cause it's quite different, but I was like, are you sure this sounds like me? And she was like, yeah, obviously. But I don't know why. It's hard for me to pinpoint why. So Krisserin, when you were talking about the conversations you were having with your agent, which by the way, congratulations. I was very excited when I listened to that episode for you. It's like a really hard thing to, to figure out. It's like, I, I think it's there and whenever people tell me, like when I read your books, they sound like your essays in some way. I don't understand how that's the case, but I'm glad it is. You know,

Krisserin:

I still haven't figured it out. If, when, if and when I do, I'll let you know.

OLIVIA:

maybe the key is writing essays.

Kelton:

I was gonna

Krisserin:

I.

Kelton:

same. This thing like maybe it's don't go out with like publishing'em right away, but like maybe trying short form personal essay is a fun way to find voice.

Krisserin:

maybe I do need, I was, that is literally when you said, people say that my books sound like my essays. I'm like, Ooh, maybe I need to write an essay. I don't know what I would write about, but I, uh.

Kelton:

UCLA offers a really great course on personal essay. You should see when the next time they offer it is. I know you're big on courses.

Krisserin:

I do like a class. I do, I have so much time for one right now too. It would probably be January, winter, winter session, I would assume. I should read more books of essays that I think that would be a good place to start. You know, we talked to Chelsea Hodson, whose first book was a book of essays and, I do think that, I mean, I read your essays every week, Kelton, so I'm a Kelton Wright Shangri Logs essay expert at this point. But I will say that the last, last week when we interviewed Leslie Bannatyne, it did inspire me to go back to short stories. So maybe Olivia, after our interview, I'll, I'll go and think about some essays to write.

Kelton:

Olivia, your essays are very good. Is there any

OLIVIA:

Thank you.

Kelton:

in your future?

OLIVIA:

I, well, thank you. That means a lot coming from you. Because the feeling is mutual, but I don't know. I've had a few people ask me like, would you do an essay collection? And I just, I'm like, I don't know if I have that much to say. You know, like, clearly I do. I've been doing it for years, but there is this, this in. You know, this feeling of like, what have I been through that, that warrants this? Which I know is like not a, a great way to think about writing at all, ever, but it's a real thing that, that I, you know, go through. But for now, I like having, Substack is like the personal writing hub of my life. And ultimately, I'm in this for the long haul, whatever pays my bills. If there's someone out there who wants me to write a memoir, if my agent is like, have you ever considered this? Or I would follow it, you know, I, all I wanna do is this. So never say never.

Kelton:

I love that approach. All right. I kind of wanna letterbox you, but for books, I will not hold you to this, but I do want to hear like, what are three favorites that come to mind. they do not have to be your top time, all favorites, but who's making the the list for now?

OLIVIA:

One book I think about all the time, I read it almost a year ago, and I think about it constantly is Night Watching by Tracy Sierra. I, this is a, I don't know if either of you have read it. It's a book about a woman who is alone in a very, very old house in New England during a snowstorm with her two small children. And she thinks that there's an intruder in the house and she is watching him on, her little baby camera. And it is so suspenseful. Page turning, will not be able to turn, will not be able to put it down. But like the greater message of like if women are believed and the terror of being a woman in the world, like it's so well done. The writing is just excellent. It's like my ultimate literary suspense recommendation. And I do not hear enough people talking about this book, so I like to evangelize about it. That's one.

Kelton:

Oh, you

Krisserin:

It's like the perfect book club book.

OLIVIA:

I,

Krisserin:

it sounds amazing.

OLIVIA:

the

Krisserin:

to

OLIVIA:

biggest fan. It is so scary though, especially if you have small children. So just

Kelton:

I know. I'm

OLIVIA:

keep that in mind.

Kelton:

wait on this one.

OLIVIA:

Do not read it alone, but man, man, just so good. I also recently read Tilt by Emma Petit, which I have been telling everyone about. This is about a woman who is very close to the end of her pregnancy, about to give birth. She's in an IKEA and there is a huge earthquake again, west coast. So I don't know, I'm like only suggesting things that may scare this one or both of you. But it's about like the big one, this earthquake that may or may not happen on the west coast one day. And it's a lot about motherhood and the fear of motherhood and she has to find her way to her partner through like the chaos of Portland. I believe she's in Portland. So good short, I read in like a day.

Kelton:

I read a lot about this book. I have read

OLIVIA:

Oh,

Kelton:

about this book. It's been on my TBR pile for a long

OLIVIA:

it's so good.

Kelton:

It's just like, it's exactly what I want out of a book. I

OLIVIA:

Yes.

Kelton:

I love people having to navigate them. I love the idea that she is pregnant in the book, right?

OLIVIA:

Yes.

Kelton:

Yeah. And so it was like, uh, I started hearing about this book when I was pregnant, and I was just like, oh, I would be so good at this. This is like right up my alley. I should still be in LA and I should have an earthquake while I'm pregnant. I was like, wow, babe. You need to reel it

OLIVIA:

you, you won't think that when you read it, you'll be like, I don't want the earthquake. Don't want it. But it is, I think like knowing your taste a little bit, I think you would like it. It has a lot of heart and humor while being just beautifully written

Kelton:

It's cool. All

OLIVIA:

and.

Kelton:

three.

OLIVIA:

Third, I would say notes on Your Sudden Disappearance by Alison Pac, who wrote The Wedding People. This was her second novel. And it is such a good coming of age story. It's about, uh, a two sisters, one of whom dies, and the whole story is told from the younger sister, two, the older sister who has passed away about everything that changes and evolves in her absence. And it is beautiful. I love the wedding people as like everyone did. Most people did.

Kelton:

It. I, I thought

OLIVIA:

yeah.

Kelton:

was an amazing dialogue writer, especially.

OLIVIA:

Yes, yes. And funny. She's very funny.

Kelton:

funny.

OLIVIA:

I liked notes in your sudden disappearance, actually more than, even more than the wedding people. So I recommend it to everyone. I'm also an evangelist for that book. It's a. One of the most beautiful, like moving last scenes just perfect that I've ever read. So I love it.

Kelton:

I can't wait.

Krisserin:

So I saw that you have an upcoming retreat in the Catskills. Is this your first retreat? It's so exciting. It's like in a couple of weeks. You must be really looking forward to it.

OLIVIA:

Yeah, so I worked with a company in the past that did group travel and they planned the trips, but I kind of hosted it and I promoted it, and then I went on them with everyone and I got such immense joy out of just being in a room with people who love the same things. And like I just was like, oh, this is. It makes everything that I love about being online, writing, podcasting, make sense.'cause I'm like, oh, this is actually why, I just wanna hang out with other people who like these things and who can talk for hours about books or writing. the only thing was I wanted to plan it myself is the slight control freak I am. So I had this goal to, to plan one myself and or a version of it. And so yeah, this is my first one in a couple weeks it's sold out, which I was really very nervous about, excited about and I've just been putting together all the little goodie bags and too much money on Etsy, honestly. But I just, I hope it's, I just want people to have a space where they can feel really comfortable to love the things they love and watch movies with a fireplace. I dunno. It's very simple I guess. But yeah, it's my first one in this format that I'm hosting myself.

Kelton:

Well,

Krisserin:

I love that.

Kelton:

I wish I was going.

Krisserin:

I know, I saw that. I was like, oh damn,

OLIVIA:

You're

Krisserin:

the Catskills are probably beautiful this time of year too. Nice and cozy.

Kelton:

Krisserin and I would really love to eventually host a retreat. Then we just both have to get published first.

OLIVIA:

Why?

Krisserin:

That little thing.

OLIVIA:

Would go now. Like

Krisserin:

let's go, let's little, the three of us little mini retreat.

Kelton:

yeah.

OLIVIA:

would go,

Krisserin:

It'd be us and all of our friends. It'd be like a girls trip is what it's gonna end up.

Kelton:

nice. Yeah, this is just a girl's trip.

OLIVIA:

that's kind of what the retreat.

Kelton:

I love that so much. All right. You obviously have your goals lined up, Olivia, but please help us with ours. We need to figure out what our goals are for the week ahead, Krisserin you're on more of a timeline, so is there anything in particular that you're trying to knock out?

Krisserin:

I am and I'm not. Right, because I finished revising, the work that I needed to have done by December 1st, so I'm not touching that work anymore. And now I'm really just trying to figure out, I have probably another a hundred pages or a little bit more than that of writing than I need to do for, to finish the second book to get to the end. And I did figure out the Lord of the Rings ending for my book, like how I wrap up every little storyline and the resolution of what life is gonna look like after resolution comes. But I need to get there. And so right now my goal is to figure out how to make my characters' lives as miserable as possible until I get to that point. But I just don't know how to do it yet. I don't quite know how to throw them into the fire. So Olivia, if you have any, tips on generative things to do to help find the story, that's where I'm at right now. I need to just keep writing. I've been doing about a thousand words a day, and they're not good, but it's just getting story down on paper and getting the plot points. I know I want in the book down on paper, but. It's very, like blindly feeling around for it. And quite literally, I was listening to you guys talk about the spaces that you create for your writing. And I am up at 5:00 AM in the pitch black darkness in my garage with like crickets and spiders around me, like with one little lamp in the dark little mole.

OLIVIA:

fix this for you. All you

Krisserin:

Okay.

OLIVIA:

is a taper candle. Like there's literally nothing that a taper candle can't fix. I am a firm believer It, makes everything cozy. it will change your life in a garage. Just get a few, you will. All I'm telling you, it will help. I candles.

Krisserin:

It, it

OLIVIA:

That's all I

Krisserin:

would help. But my in-laws get up at the same time as me. They're, you know. If they're older and my garage faces the kitchen and they're like, the light's on and they're walking back and forth and they're making coffee and stuff. And so as peaceful as I try to be, I think that's why I make my space so dark because I'm trying to blot out the light of,

Kelton:

can you hang some curtains? Like I know you're hanging curtains in a garage. I understand the futility of, this, but you could get a curtain rod at Home Goods or Target for like 35 bucks and get some shit curtains and

Krisserin:

it doesn't matter.

Kelton:

Light your candle. I I'm a big Palo Santo girl. I'm like set. The mood was sent,

Krisserin:

I like incense. Yeah, I do. I, it's hard. The garage is not the ideal writing location. Actually, the room that I'm in right now is great, but then, um, it's, it's like my husband's sleeping. It's like right on the other side of this. And so it's hard. I don't really have my own, I don't have a room of my own. Um.

Kelton:

can sleep through you typing.

Krisserin:

Not on this keyboard. It's loud as hell. It's a mechanical keyboard. I'll figure that out. But it's the, it's the generative part that

OLIVIA:

Right. We're

Krisserin:

mood's not gonna change anytime soon.

OLIVIA:

to Home Goods and getting some candles? That's all we have. Um,

Kelton:

I.

OLIVIA:

Okay. I don't think this actually answers your question, but something I have been thinking about as we were talking about essays and stuff is, one thing that I've been doing recently is thinking of essay angles, to pitch places in promotion of my book coming up, which is a

Krisserin:

Hmm.

OLIVIA:

way to think about your novel, but in a way it is like this path into personal essay that is directly connected to the narrative that you're writing and the characters. And maybe it will both help you with the voice aspect of things, but also just think about, the goals of, of the story in a different way. It's really challenging, I think, but if you're just, if you're stuck and you're just like, I need to write something else.'cause for me sometimes that's helpful. I don't know, maybe not this week, but I don't know. As I said that, I'm like,

Krisserin:

I mean.

OLIVIA:

Olivia, take it back.

Krisserin:

No, it's a great idea. And honestly, the thing is that the novel that I'm working on right now, the themes are very relevant to the world that we live in today, with parasocial relationships and being, chronically online and what's real, what's imagined AI has, it's not in the book, but there's definitely an element of that. So I could see that working. I think to it, it brings me back to what Kelton was saying about how much she hates research. Because when you're talking about a subject that a lot of people have opinions on, a lot of people have opinions on it, so you have to get it right. I would have to do some research to write about this from a informed and educated perspective, but I do love that idea, so I'm gonna think about it. That's really cool.

Kelton:

I also like doing, is finding a movie score that matches the tone of my book and going for a walk and listening to the score. For me, it's almost always Planet Earth two, that covers ever. Emotion I've ever had every year. That is my number one on Spotify for the last six years.

OLIVIA:

That's actually so cool though.'cause mine is always something really not that great. It's don't wanna expose myself, but it's not planet Earth to soundtrack so.

Kelton:

I feel like I should write a letter to Jacob Shea and be like, I don't think you understand how much your music has impacted my writing in my life, but find a score that matches the tone. Because it, that it'll carry you through those moments where you're throwing them in the fire. Especially if you choose like an action movie soundtrack.'cause that's sort of what your speculative fiction feels like to me.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

and like move, you know, like go for a walk because you kind of need to let that part of your brain out of the way and let that imagination part react to the music. So that would be my, that is something I do when I'm trying to get the gears going.

Krisserin:

I am writing an adventure suspense novel, which I didn't plan on doing.'cause it, I don't really read them. So I'm like, okay, well people are getting chased and their heads are getting cut open. Like, this is not what I thought was gonna happen, but, um. It's a, it's a point well taken. I'll, I'll think about because I, I listen to jazz typically and it's like very moody jazz music with no vocals or anything. And similar to you, it was my Spotify wrapped was like Miles Davis and Ethiopian Jazz. And then, I'm sure this year it'll be like K-pop demon hunters, whatever my kids are listening to on top of that.

OLIVIA:

Everyone's

Krisserin:

Okay, I like it. I'm gonna a hundred percent. All right, I'm gonna think about an essay. I like that. Um, and try and find some music and to get myself in the mood. But Kelton, what are you gonna struggle through this week?

Kelton:

Well, Olivia, I sent Krisserin and another friend of mine who published a memoir, my memoir proposal, along with the first three chapters. And they both gave me feedback, which I have not looked at or responded to. But I will say top line'cause Krisserin and I did talk about Krisserin's feedback and I got voice notes from my other friend with her feedback. And you both of tackled the same thing and you both were like, the chapters are good, proposal itself is what needs changing. You went in opposite directions. Krisserin was like

Krisserin:

Interesting.

Kelton:

more of your voice and more of you. And my friend who has sold a memoir in this, like loosely in this genre was like, it needs more selling. Um, and so she was like, you need some stats and figures about like why the zeitgeist will like positively react to this type of book, why they would be incentivized to buy it. And so I, I unfortunately do have to do some research this week.

OLIVIA:

The

Kelton:

what is, um, and I, I just, I gotta dive into the first round of edits on that. Olivia, I'm giving myself all of November and December to polish my proposal because everybody was like, you can't query, the end of the year everybody's done over it, holidays, et cetera. So I have the next two months to work on it and to start thinking about who, who in what order want to query.

OLIVIA:

have you let yourself look at, agents again.

Kelton:

I've only looked at them once. I looked at who the agents were for a few of my comps and, you know, I was like, okay. All right. And I also, I have friends who are like, well, I'll send it to my agent. so I'm just trying to think about in, in the best case scenario, I am getting to choose an agent. and so I, I just wanna be thoughtful'cause this is like my first go out the gate talking to agents, and I'm like, I don't wanna mess this up. So do you have any, any guidance for me in that genre?

OLIVIA:

I am, I'm no expert, but I mean, it sounds like you're doing all the right things. I, I have nothing for you actually. I'm so sorry, but No,

Krisserin:

I have advice.

OLIVIA:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

Listen to your other friend.

OLIVIA:

here?

Krisserin:

Don't listen to me. Listen to your other friend who's actually published a memoir.

Kelton:

But Krisserin, you, your advice about what the, the key sentence was that kind of hook someone, because I am starting this proposal with a question to try and draw the agent or the editor or whoever ends up reading it into it to be like, I do want the answer to that. And so you highlighted that there was another question in the document that was perhaps more powerful, more compelling. And so I am, I am thinking about that as like the lead line. and then, just adding people in there. Olivia, you're in my proposal right now. I have a

OLIVIA:

What?

Kelton:

of people Yeah. Where it's these are people I could potentially reach out to, um, to talk

OLIVIA:

Oh.

Kelton:

my book.

OLIVIA:

Literally, I, I will give you a pre blurb. I, I, seriously, both of you, I'm so like, excited to see what both of you do, because I just feel like every week I'm cheering you on and every week I relate to something and yeah, I'm just, I'm excited. But I do have one bit of advice with navigating, feedback. If you have two different things, I feel like you are someone who just so instinctually, trusts your gut on things. And I always think about feedback. Sometimes I will, if I'm, I'm sending something to my editor or my agent and I'm like, I don't know about that. I don't mention it to them. And I see if they, say something and then I take that as like my guidance going forward. So it's like sometimes I just leave it to them to confirm my gut instinct or not. Instead of, sometimes I'll leave a note that's like, do you, what do you think about this? I'm on the fence, but if I just leave it usually. I don't know if that's very clear, but I feel like if you're trusting your gut instinct on things, I think regardless of what the market wants or what has sold before it changes so often. It's like almost impossible, I think, to formulate the perfect pitch. But I'm excited for you. I'm excited for both of you. Thank

Kelton:

Yay. it's been so exciting to have you on Pen Pals. if you, like pen pals and are not already listening to Bad on Paper, I highly encourage you to add it to your podcast Rolodex. It's so good, it's so motivating. It feels like hanging out with friends.

OLIVIA:

you. Thanks. I feel the same about your guys podcast.

Krisserin:

Olivia, what are your goals for the week? What are you hoping to get accomplished?

OLIVIA:

So I am finishing my proposal for this book three and also getting ready for the retreat. So I'm just really trying to like trust. My gut instinct in that like, I believe that this is good and I know that even if it's rejected, I will keep going with it. And sometimes I feel like that's the only measure of success I have. I will do this until I die. It doesn't matter who rejects me, it doesn't matter what devastating email I get, I will keep going. And so I think my goal is just to keep going and just to the proposal and know it's maybe not perfect, but it'll land where it, it should.

Kelton:

Light some candles, walk around a beautiful city crying. These are the things that bring us together.

OLIVIA:

I, did I tell you the story about me walking around Portland crying before or after the Pisces?'cause that was the giveaway. I think maybe like was the giveaway, if not the fish candle holder. I'm like, how did you know I was a Pisces? I don't know.

Krisserin:

We can talk about it after. I don't want any Pi, other Pisces coming for me.

Kelton:

Uh, Olivia, it's been such a true treasure having you on the pod. I feel like I, we've made a real friend. so thank you for joining us. To everyone who listens, you know where to reach us at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com. You can find us@penpalspod on all the platforms Please write to us about who you'd like on the podcast and all the questions you're curious about. We love hearing from you. and

Krisserin:

go pre-order? Little one? Where can they pre-order it? Olivia.

OLIVIA:

you can go to my website, oliviamuenter.com and you can find all the links. But Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your local Indy. I'll take anything.

Krisserin:

Can't wait to read it.

Kelton:

are what make the difference. We love

Krisserin:

That's right.

Kelton:

pre-order in now.

Krisserin:

Absolutely.

OLIVIA:

you guys so much and thank you for everything you do.

Kelton:

All right. Happy writing everybody.

Krisserin:

Happy writing.

Head Shot

Kelton Wright

Co-host
Head Shot

Krisserin Canary

Co-host
Head Shot

Olivia Muenter

Guest