Pen Pals

Emily Halnon's Couch-to-Marathon for Writers: From Proposal to Bestseller

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 2 • Episode 9

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Krisserin's brain is scrambled from her massive Excel spreadsheet organizing her 24,000 remaining words, while Kelton is juggling unexpected client work that threatens to derail her memoir proposal. But this week they're joined by Emily Halnon, USA Today bestselling author of To the Gorge: Running Grief and Resilience and 460 Miles on the Pacific Crest Trail, a writer, trail runner, and mountain athlete who set the fastest known time on the 460-mile Oregon PCT.

Emily's here to talk about the gap between landing an agent and getting published—and why the submission process was far more brutal than her surprisingly smooth querying journey. After three agent offers in six weeks, Emily faced publisher after publisher saying no, not because of her writing, but because her platform wasn't big enough. She breaks down the "pitch deck" strategy for positioning your memoir, how market bias shows up in publishing decisions (including the absurd reasoning that there's only room for one book about women on trails), and the practical realities of book marketing that most authors do themselves.

The trio discusses what actually gets your book into readers' hands—from strategic podcast appearances to NPR affiliate targeting to direct DM outreach. Emily shares her candid breakdown of launch strategy, sustainable (and unsustainable) approaches to self-promotion, and the vulnerability hangover that comes after pouring your grief onto the page. Plus: Emily's discovery of poetry as creative renewal, Krisserin's push toward December 1st manuscript completion, Kelton's chapter outline goals, and their shared realization that sometimes the best writing investment is permission to rest and let ideas compost.

Through their different paths to publication, all three writers circle back to the same truth: authenticity and persistence matter more than perfect platforms or publishers' initial predictions.

Get Emily's book: To the Gorge: Running Grief and Resilience and 460 Miles on the Pacific Crest Trail

Learn more about Emily:
Website: https://www.emilyhalnon.com/
Instagram: @emilysweats
Substack Newsletter: Trail Mix

Recommended Reading from Emily:
The Salt Stones by Helen Whybrow
Poets Square by Courtney Gustafson
Tilt by Emma Pattee
The Three Lives of Cate Kay by Kate Fagan
The Comfort of Crows by Margaret Renkl

Write to us:
officialpenpalspod@gmail.com

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton:

Hi, Krisserin

Krisserin:

Hi. How are you doing? How's your week?

Kelton:

I'm fine, I'm fine. Uh, I haven't, I, I haven't slept in days, um, and I now, you know, when you're just like, you're past the point where you're like, whatever, I just feel like I'm dying all the time. And it'll get better eventually. That's where I am.

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Krisserin:

Your hair looks great.

Kelton:

Thank you. I got it done. I got it done a couple days ago, and I'm feeling almost like myself again.

Krisserin:

I, I have to say, when I saw your Instagram story of you in the chair, I was like, yes. So Kelton found some time for herself to like, get her hair done and look beautiful and it's, I think that's, um, I don't think people understand like how underrated. Being able to do self care and beauty really, truly is, but I'm, I'm happy for you.

Kelton:

So restorative, how are you?

Krisserin:

I feel like my brain is just, uh, scrambled. I feel very fried, but I had a good writing week, so I, I feel like I can't complain on that front.

Kelton:

Good. I mean, your goal was to write the big climax of the book. Did you do it?

Krisserin:

No, but. I did get a lot of writing done, so I wrote 6,000 words I basically took my book and put it into Excel. I did the same thing for the Gustafs and Women book, so I put it into Excel and I put all of the descriptions of each chapter in there and then looked at the. End of the book and mapped out kind of how many different chapters I needed to get to 80 or 90,000 words. My book has alternating POVs, so I kind of knew like, okay, this chapter is for this character and this character. And so I was able to visualize a little bit better what still needed to be done. And I actually color coded, like these are the chapters that have the climax and, and that helped a lot. And so I did figure out who my boogeyman is, which is. It

Kelton:

Hello.

Krisserin:

great. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, I created this character at the beginning of the book that like completely disappeared. I'll just use them. So that worked out and I, yeah, I, I got pretty far and I actually didn't forward too much in the story, but I did fill in a lot of the chapters because the chapters have been really sparse. They've been like, yeah. A thousand or so words. So I was able to go back and really beef them up and get them to two, 3000 words and I'm feeling better overall about it in general.

Kelton:

That sounds like a great, great week. I, I can also see why it would leave you a little scrambled. You're describing so much work. You're the only person I know who, who takes their writing to excel.

Krisserin:

I'm sure other people do it too.

Kelton:

I'm sure other people do it. I just don't know them,

Krisserin:

So.

Kelton:

but I appreciate the mathematical approach.

Krisserin:

Well, similar to you, you. I remember when you were working on the novel, you were thinking in word counts, and so I have been, chronicling what chapter I worked on and how many words I wrote of it, if it's like a partial full chapter. And so what I ended up doing was putting it in the spreadsheet and actually, I think having an end goal for word count is helpful because I remember when I pulled up the second book when Kima was like, let's submit the first 50 pages. I'd only had like 20,000 words and I was kind of, or maybe it was more, but I was shocked by how few words I had because I had so many chapters. They were just really short chapters. So that's been really helpful. It's very similar to how you do with the, the sticky notes. It's just in a spreadsheet. And then I use the sum to like know how many words I have and how many words I have to go. And it kind of just helps organize my thoughts a little bit. But

Kelton:

Yeah,

Krisserin:

what Excel was intended for. That's for sure.

Kelton:

but I love that that's how you're using it.

Krisserin:

Why not? I use it so much for work and it's so, soulless. So to give it another life as a piece of technology, you know,

Kelton:

Like we can have a friendship. I can enjoy you.

Krisserin:

I can do something useful with you. Yeah. How was your week? How was, I know you're not getting a ton by the way. I saw this TikTok of this woman this morning, and I wanted to cry for her because she was like, day in the life of a work from home mom. And I'm like, first of all, where is this woman's partner? Because. Jail immediately, but she was like breastfeeding and the laptop was there and she's like this. And the poor kid like, wouldn't nap. And I was, I wanted to just pull my hair out for this woman and she's not getting any sleep and she's working. I think it's criminal that women have to go back to work after four months regardless, but

Kelton:

What's a nightmare?

Krisserin:

it's a nightmare. Anyhow,

Kelton:

my week thankfully, is a little more structured than that. Because Ben is on the final push of his construction job. He's had to be on site every day, working on carpentry. And so we've had to up just this week how often Woods is in daycare so that we can both hit our deadlines. And so I've actually. Had the kid in daycare for like three hours every day, which has been, you know, just like really nice. And he also, he came home the other day and he took out his little baby piano and he played four keys in a row and he sang A, B, C, D, and I was like. You are 17 months old. What? This daycare is really, really accelerated past mom's ability to teach you things. So I'm very grateful for them. But my goals for the past week were to, of course, to get to 10,000 subscribers on the newsletter, which I did not do.

Krisserin:

That was not your

Kelton:

It's just, it was to work toward it. I did write some ad copy, so I'm thinking about how I promote the newsletter on, TikTok and Pinterest, and so I did some thinking around that. I've been working, like I mentioned last week, I have a note in my phone about like what the potential chapters are within the memoir, so I have some framework that I worked on that. I will tell you I did a little oopsie a new client emailed me and asked if I could work all of November and December, and they were like, it's 40 hours a week. And I was like, well, no, I, I can't do that. And then they wrote back and they were like, well, what can you do? And so I gave them a number and they were like, great, we'll do that. And I was like, no. Oh no. I didn't mean to say yes. I wanted to say no. November and December we're supposed to be so relaxing. But I just, I feel like I'm still. Recovering from losing my job while pregnant, and I'm like, I, it's, it's so hard to say no to work, especially as I look down the pipeline of my work vanishing to ai and now that one of my major clients has me working on and about AI all the time, I can really see the writing very clearly on the wall, and I'm like, you need to make money now. You need to make money right now. And so I, I haven't signed ink on that contract, but I, I expect to. I kinda shot myself in the foot for November, December and my proposal, but I'm just, you know, as per usual, my plan is to simply do it all. Nothing's changed about me.

Krisserin:

No, I, yeah, I was editing last week's episode and you made a comment and you're like, you should just freelance to me. I was like, no. I feel the same pressure because, we have to make money to support our families.

Kelton:

mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

Do we have? Our writing's always gonna be thing that gets pushed, put to the side, unfortunately. Glad to hear that Woods is spending some more time in daycare, and it seems to be it sounds like he's enjoying it, which is great. I know there was a lot

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

uh, anxiety around that, so I'm happy to hear that he's liking it. I think they end up making friends. It's super cute. He's gonna really enjoy himself. He's,

Kelton:

Yeah, he is, he's doing really well. We got lots of pictures of him having a blast there. But then, you know, next week you go back to two days a week, which is, you know, not it's good enough.

Krisserin:

So tonight is your last class, right?

Kelton:

Session six of the autumn practice of the Rewilding. It's been, it's been really amazing. It's been really such a treat to bring my writing to, an audience in this way. Because it's, it's just adapting what I would normally write for a class and teaching it instead of, turning it into an essay.

Krisserin:

I was laying in bed last night before falling asleep, thinking about our retreat.

Kelton:

Oh yes.

Krisserin:

And I was thinking about how one day could be a Kelton day where we do a nature walk and journaling exercises and breath work. And then one day could be a Krisserin day we do a little class and writing exercises. It's becoming real in my head, I love that. By the time we do have our retreat, have like a whole curricula ready to go. I'm so excited

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

theoretical future

Kelton:

uh, Something fun today is that our guest today is actually, in the class. Emily Halnon. Emily Halnon is a writer, trail runner, mountain athlete. She set the FKAT, which is the fastest known time on the 460 mile Oregon PCT. She's also placed in the top 10 at the Hard Rock a hundred mile endurance race, which goes. Right by my house but for our purposes, Emily's been published in the Washington Post, the Guardian Salon Runner's World, and a bunch of others, and she's also the USA today bestselling author of To the Gorge Running Grief and Resilience and 460 miles on the Pacific Crest Trail. I had the pleasure of meeting Emily a couple weeks ago. She was, near where I live, and we synced up for a hike with our crazy dogs. And she's a delight. She's, she's such a welcoming runner and writer. She's just one of those people who brings people into the craft, the sport, and her life in such a warm, fun way. And I, I'm so jazzed to have her on the pod today. So let's get into it. Here is Emily Halman. Emily, welcome to Pen Pals.

Emily:

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I um, I think thanks to the serendipity of the universe, discovered Kelton's newsletter like legitimately the week you started Pen Pals. So I have been a listener since week one. I'm thrilled to chatting with you two.

Kelton:

Oh, that's so satisfying. I love hearing that. We spared you listening to your own intro. so

Emily:

Oh.

Kelton:

jump, right? Yeah. I know it's tough when you're like, here's your list of accomplishments. How do you feel about it? But I do wanna talk about one major accomplishment, which is your book to the gorge. An absolutely beautiful gut wrenching book. If you need a good cry. I cried the entire book in like a really cathartic, nice way, but man, you really. got the waterworks going. I'm like, IM impressed that you can write a book that that does that the whole time.

Emily:

I definitely did some crying while I was writing it, so I guess it's not surprising that that somehow translates into some emotions for the reader too.

Kelton:

one of the perks of moving onto laptops away from the page. You're not like blurring your own writing while you're doing it.

Emily:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelton:

To The Gorge is such a beautiful book about processing grief, both in your, your human family and your pet family and like processing it through running. And I kind of wanted to just start by asking you about the process of writing your book. You're a runner, an accomplished one, and like. How did you approach writing? Were, did you have like a training plan? Are you an outliner? Are you a panther? Like what was the what was the itinerary here?

Emily:

Oh yeah. I mean. it's funny because I definitely approached it as a runner, but I'm not a runner who really relies on a training plan. I'm kind of, I'm more of a, a pants in my running and also a pants in my writing. But there were ways that running really translated to the writing process, I think like. Prior to writing the book, I had only written, I had a running blog for a number of years, and then I had published a handful of essays, so I had only written like 1000 to 1500 word pieces. And when I started to write the book in the Running World, you hear about people doing things like couch to 5K, like learning how to go from basically not running. To then doing a 5K in a few months. To me, going from a blog post to writing an entire book felt a little like couch to running across the United States of America. Like it just was incredibly overwhelming in the immensity of what I was trying to do, and so I did appreciate that the way to do it was very similar to how I approach. Huge runs. And when I started writing the book, I think I had this vision of like to write a book. I will, I will sit down and I will have like the glow of the moon and the soft light from candles and my coffee will be perfectly froth and I will be so inspired. And then I was like, that's not actually how you write a. At all, you just sit down and write in the same way that when you're training for something, you're not waiting for ideal days to do it You're just getting out the door every day and hail and rain and there's that, that consistency is then what leads you to be prepared to do a big run. And it was similar with the book that just sitting down and writing on a regular basis is what helped me write a book. And in the same way that it gets easier to go out the front door and your runs start to feel better, the writing process also felt easier and easier. As I, developed that consistency and, you know, words flow and you two know this from your own relationships with writing. But there definitely were ways that I felt like I was approaching writing a book in the same way that I get ready for big runs.

Kelton:

What was the origin spark of this book? Like you went from writing essays. to diving into a book. Did someone ask for it? Were you just like, this is a book? what took you from, 1500 word pieces to the memoir?

Emily:

Yeah, more the latter. This was a book, I mean, the through line in a lot of my writing prior to working on the book was using running or the outdoors or outdoor adventure to dig into elements of the human experience. So after I did this, run, this 460 mile run across Oregon and also. Was going through the greatest emotional experience of my life. It felt pretty obvious that I would write about it, and it also felt pretty obvious that that was not a 1500 word piece and that that was more of a book length project. And so it felt really clear to me from the start that what I wanted to do is probably write a book.

Kelton:

sort of like, it's clear from the end though.'cause you did the run and then you were like, now I write the book.

Emily:

Yeah, I mean I've had a lot of people ask me like, when you went into the run, were you taking notes because you knew you would be writing a book. And my grief brain, like I, looking back, I kind of can't believe that I did the run when I was in such a raw place with grief. But I think that was maxing out my grief brain to tackle that run. And there was no part of me that was then like. You are also going to write a book about this. I think I was really focused on the run and then in, the months after the run as I was sitting with it and processing it and having, you know, I didn't do a lot of writing in the immediate wake of losing my mom. And as I began to feel called to write again, I think that's when it started to take shape as a book.

Kelton:

I mean, that makes sense to me. What would, what would, you say to someone who's trying to create through that heartbreak or transition?

Emily:

I like that your dog is making an appearance right now. My dog might make an appearance at some point during this conversation.

Krisserin:

Just saw his little head up.

Kelton:

Is this j.

Emily:

I mean, I would. Welcome. I mean, I would definitely a tell them that they don't need to feel rushed to write about it. Like I didn't write for several months after losing my mom, and I don't think I could have in any meaningful way, when I was trying to write about it. It was really important to me to write about it in a really raw and honest way and to present my grief in that state, and that meant accessing some really painful memories. And so I think thinking about what do you need to do to feel supported? safe as a human while you're writing into that kind of material. Like I had very regular therapy throughout the writing process. I had my dog doing what Jibs is doing right now, like close by as I was writing about it. And I think also like, you know, we turn to writing because it's a way to. To process and alchemize our hardest things. and I think I really appreciated that it served that purpose for me as I was writing into it. And for me too, in this specific instance, it was a way to, you know, I, I was really hopeful that it would be published and it felt like a gift that I could share my mom through this project. And so I think being able to spend that time, like with her on the page was really special and, and trusting that I would then build to share her through this writing.

Kelton:

Krisserin and I's mandatory questions of course is you have the book idea, you have a maybe a proposal. What's the process for agent and editor and publishing?

Emily:

Well, I should say that I, I knew nothing about the book publishing process when I started. I wish I had been listening to pen pals when I started writing.'cause that would've really like, just a, a reassuring voice in my head to hear other people going through similar things and figuring it out. So I mean, I was like, I turned to Google. To figure out how to write a proposal and, and start the process. I did decide to write a proposal instead of a full manuscript, which I think was as much about my impatience as a human being, as any strategic decision. And when I thought that I had a proposal ready, I started querying agents and I started in, you know, the same way they tell you to start by like looking in the acknowledgement section of books that I felt were similar to mine. Um, that strategy did not last me all that long because a lot of the books that are comparable to mine, like looking at like running books, a lot of running books are published by professional runners who are, you know, their own kind of celebrity within the sport. And a lot of the agents that represent them are the type of agents who are also representing celebrity memoirs, which is not what mine is and, um, was not the type of agent that I think was gonna sign onto the project. So after I ran through that list, I pride myself on being very good at internet stalking, at being like a good internet detective. And so that really served me well in the. Process of looking for agents, because I looked for agents that I thought,'cause you have to find someone who believes in the book almost as much as you do. So you wanna find someone who's like really gonna connect to your story. And so I was looking for agents that I thought would connect to it. And for me, that was really easy and looking for like agents who are runners or who have a relationship with movement that might appreciate that element of this story. So, the querying process honestly was. Pretty smooth for me. I, I think I had three offers of representation within like six weeks of starting to query. So it happened very, very fast and like Anne gave me a foolish, I

Krisserin:

What a dream.

Emily:

I mean, I think like it's part of it too is like if you, it's all a lot about luck and timing too. It's like if you get some interest, you can really use that to build momentum, which I did and I, I learned, could be a really like powerful tool and what, and the agent I ended up signing with helped reinforce that when she referred to my initial email, she was like, I'm adding, I'm really interested in reading this. And she was like. Please let me know if there's any activity at all on your end. And she didn't mean just like an offer of representation. That ended up being able to just kind of build this snowball of momentum that I think helped in a quick and easy process. But I will say my submission process was not that. I had a very, very smooth process with querying and then the submission process was much longer. There was much more rejection. There was a lot of learning about the hard parts of publishing and was a lot more emotional and. And it did result in a book deal that ended up being, actually a couple different book deals. But, yeah, there were like, I don't know how much you want me to get into it, but I'm, I can certainly share some, some stories from the trenches of being on submission or you can chat about something else. But yes, I just wanna say that this submission process was not as smooth as the querying process.

Krisserin:

I love the trenches. I'm about to be in the submission process, so I'd love to hear about it. But I, I, yeah, I feel like people feel like they're gonna get an agent and then they're gonna get a huge book deal and it's gonna be so easy.'cause the hard part is, has been overcome. But from we've heard, even with, our most recent guest, Olivia Muenter, it's not, it can be very emotional. So I'd love to hear about how it went for you.

Emily:

Well, and I think it can vary a lot. Like I talked to, I mentioned I had very few people that had been through this before, but I have, there's another woman in Eugene where I live who has been published by like every house in the world and she's been through it. And for her, but this was also like she created at a time where you were like writing letters to agents and like mailing them. She said it took her forever to get an agent and then as soon as she got an agent, she got big five offers in like a week. And so I think it varies. For me, the agent process was easier than publishing was not. But I mean the submission process, I went into it really hopeful because the querying process had been so smooth and it started off very promising. I think my agent had some hope around some of the editors that she had in mind for the project. And within five days we had an editor at a big five house get back to us and tell us that she loved the project and she was advancing it. And then that resulted in me hearing for the first of several times that my platform was not big enough to be excited about making an offer. And I think because that hadn't been an issue during the querying process, I was hopeful it wouldn't. Be a factor during the publishing process, but it turned out that it was, and in hindsight, I mean, I think Kelton and I talked to you a little bit about this. I feel like there are ways that I probably could have my proposal to counter some of that with what I felt like I would bring to the book saleability. But I think I went into it a little naive and, and was thinking like. I believe in this writing and this story, and I think it could be a good book and, and put less weight on fact that publishing is a business and they're, thinking about what books are gonna sell and how easy they're gonna be to sell. And they're definitely looking to, especially in nonfiction for you to make that case. And I think that I could have made that case stronger to mean, who knows? I could have received that same feedback, but that's, that was one of my takeaways from my process.

Kelton:

At the time of submission, what was your platform like and how did you present it and, and what do you think you could have done to make a be better case for yourself?

Emily:

I mean, My platform was, was not huge. I think as far as social media goes, I probably had 7,000 Instagram followers. I think on Substack I had a thousand subscribers. And then I had bylines and some pretty major publications. I think you can also think more expansively about what your platform is it's not just social media, right? And so I think building up those talking points, whether it's like we have this podcast or I'm on the board of all these organizations that add to my credibility, or I, you know, I'm involved in my community in this way or like, I think you can it, like there are ways that I'm getting my work out there. I think you can make that case and a bigger way than I did. I think also just like looking at, like, I think when I think about what I did to get my book out in the world, I don't think that I presented that potential in the proposal as strongly as I could have. Whereas if I was gonna go back and write it again, I would be like, I am going to be on the number one running podcast, which has X millions numbers of downloads. I am going to send it to this person who has, and really strengthen that case with a lot of hard numbers and and I think also, I mean the other. Major feedback. The other major reason that I, my book went to a number of acquisitions meetings. So the acquiring editor liked it, which was so frustrating'cause you're like the person that you want to matter. The editor is like, I wanna make this a book. And then it got turned down a number of times after going to acquisitions meetings for reasons that felt maddening to me as a writer who just wanted to write a book. And the other major reason I got rejected was, was because. Cheryl Strayed wrote Wild, and apparently I know how your faces say everything. And apparently one publisher said something along the lines of would readers want another book about a woman on a trail and I just I think the shortsighted nature of it, of like, there's been this one book and, and it was immensely popular. It like became a feature of film. It completely transformed the, the popularity of the Pacific Crest trail. It is. That to me is like making the argument that there's a cupcake shop in town and every day there's a miles long line. And so we should not have another cupcake shop because it's just too popular. And my partner, Ian, made a point as this, as I was getting some of this feedback of like a lot of these publishing houses are based in New York and the people who are making these decisions aren't driving to the Island Lake Trailhead and seeing that there's a two mile long line of cars parked there every day because the people are so excited to get out and be doing that kind of thing. And so I think also strengthening here is how interested people are in this. Kind of I had one publisher said something about running being a niche sport and it's like the nu right? Like numbers behind running it is, so I think just thinking about. All of the different ways that you can sell elements of your story, sell the interest in elements of your story. And I think I trusted that some of it was really obvious. And if, if I went back and did it again, I would really try to highlight all of those things. Whether it's through like, you know, here's other material that's been made that show that people are interested in this or here I, maybe I would go and put like, here are how many people are at trail heads and here's how much it's growing all the time. Or just things that really. Underscore how much people could care about your story. You can't expect that people making these decisions are gonna spend a long time with your material making them. And so I think the easier you can make it for them to quickly look at what you're presenting and, and see the potential in it, the better. And I think present, just building up as a market marketing document, making it look good, making it seem like you're someone who knows how to market and sell something because that's, I think they want that.

Krisserin:

the more I hear you talk about it, the more it feels like you have to make a pitch deck.

Emily:

think, I think you

Krisserin:

you know?

Emily:

and I don't think mine, I a little bit added in some elements that I think gave it some flashiness. Like my run, I did it in 2020, it organically got quite a bit of media attention and I tried to include some of that to highlight people are are naturally interested in this. But I think I would should bring that out even more. And not feeling like it needs to be this extremely professional thing, but that show that you as a writer and human are also an interesting person who readers will wanna hear from and engage with. I think letting your personality show through can also be helpful. But yeah, I do, I do think that the best strategy would be to kind of think of it as a pitch deck.

Krisserin:

It's, it's actually really helpful.

Emily:

but

Krisserin:

No, but it's true. I mean it's, you know, it's the same as when you're interviewing for a job. You kind of have to paint in the hiring manager's mind, this person. And is the job like they can do it. And so if you're interviewing to be a bestselling author to this publishing house, you kind of have to be like, look at all of this evidence that shows I can do this job. Inclusive of the marketing materials and the podcast you can go on and the coverage that you've had and, the demand for the category, which is actually, I think for me now I'm like, my wheels are turning. I can create a pitch deck. Kelton can definitely create a pitch deck for her So this, that is really helpful, way of phrasing it actually,

Emily:

And to think really expansively about it. I am from Vermont, and Vermont is a place that cares about people who are from Vermont and nothing in book or my jacket says that I'm from Vermont. But when I started contacting bookstores or groups or media outlets in Vermont, they immediately were like, oh, we didn't know you were from Vermont. Of course we'll highlight your story. And so thinking about just all of the little ways that you have this connective tissue in either your story or the book story or your opportunities to make that case, and then turn that into ways that you're reaching readers.

Kelton:

You just have my gears like spinning. I, I'm like, come,

Krisserin:

Spinning.

Kelton:

so, like, I'm so locked in on my project that I'm like, babe, get outta your head. You're interviewing Emily.

Krisserin:

No, but my brain went there for you too. Kelton. I was like, Ooh, I know what Kelton can do. I like, I started thinking about it too

Kelton:

Oh gosh.

Krisserin:

for the

Kelton:

obviously that's

Krisserin:

one Track Brains.

Kelton:

Um, I do wanna talk about a little bit, you did make it through the submission process. You did get published, and you became like a USA today bestseller. Just, just paint that picture for me. Where are you, what happens? How do you find out?

Emily:

You know, it's funny, I found out because I looked at the list myself. I got to, I was meeting a friend for a run that morning and I like, you know, I, you know what day they come out, you know what time they come out ish? I don't remember exactly now, but USA today is in the morning, New York Times in the afternoon. And, and so like the time that I thought it would come out had like passed and I was in this, like, I thought it was a long shot, right? Like I was at I was not at a Big Five publisher. Like I, there were a lot of reasons that it. Did not feel like the most likely or in any way guaranteed thing. And so I, you know, I was having one of those mornings of like, I know it's out, but I don't wanna look because it's just, it's gonna hurt that wound inside of me that just wants this to succeed. And, um. And then, and then, I don't know, I just like reached a point where I was like, all right, like, just, just look at the list, see what the list looks like this week. And then I looked at it and my book was on it, I like screamed in my car at this trail head and, and then texted my agent who was very excited about it. And, but like, I didn't expect that I would find out by looking at the list myself. But that is, that is how I found out. And it was exciting.

Kelton:

must have felt so good after.

Emily:

It did. It really? It did. It was, it was thrilling because again, going through the submission process and, and ending up at a smaller publisher, I think I, know, there was some. I think I took that rejection as these publishers don't think your book can be a success. And so, I also was like, watch me, watch me make this book a success. and so there was something very satisfying about seeing it there and feeling validated in my belief that, people could be interested in this book even after it had not picked up, not gotten picked up by one of the bigger publishers.

Kelton:

Tell me how that happens. Talk to us about launch and press and stuff. You're at a smaller publisher. What does go into being how do we get this book into people's hands?

Emily:

Yeah, a lot. I mean, I, again, I feel like in hindsight there's so much I would do differently, but I, uh. I, and I don't think this is limited to a smaller publisher. I think my understanding is that authors should always be pretty prepared to do a lot of the marketing themselves. I think publicists are probably overwhelmed with the number of books that they have on their plate and are gonna be really limited in the amount of attention that they're gonna give to you, unless you're one of the titles that. They're really putting all their resources in to be a big success. I think at some point I realized that it was gonna largely be on me to be doing a lot of the work that went into the publicity. And I, I don't know, I just tried to really embraced the idea that you need to hear about something several times before you're really paying attention to it. And even if you've got Taylor Swift posting about your book, people are gonna be off the internet that day and not hear about it. So what are the many different touch points that you have and ways that you could reach a reader. And so, I pitched a number of podcasts or it was invited onto podcast after people heard about it. I mean, a nice thing about my book is one of the very obvious ways to get it out there was through the running part of the story. There are a lot of, running is not actually a niche sport. lot of, places that people are talking about running and wanna talk about running and wanna pay attention to running. So, that was a really obvious community for me to be tapping into, whether that was through podcast or social media things. I had some events and I was really. Strategic about where I had events. I didn't wanna just spray myself all over. I wanted to think about, where is there a community and where are there places where I can reach this community? And so I had some events and where I had events, I was also pitching like local media. Affiliates were a big target for me because, there there's a lot of overlap between people who listen to NPR and want to find their next great book. And there are a lot of elements of my story that felt like a match for that. So. I had a local event, it would be pitching the, local NPR affiliate there. Social media, again, internet stalking, I slipped into a lot of dms. And there were some people who I made a very direct ask, like if they had blurred my book, do you think you could share this on the day that it comes out? Or whatever, whatever. But a lot of people I just would reach out and say, you know, I, I wrote this book. I think you might like it because, and put some thought into why I was reaching out and then didn't make an ask, like just said like, I wanna send this to you. And a lot of those people did share it. Some people didn't obviously get back to me. Some people, didn't share it. But I think that was, a thing definitely worth doing. Um, and, uh, I plugged in. Yeah, it was and on, and again, like when I think about how I would do it differently, I didn't realize how much time it would take and I did not give myself nearly enough time to do it. And I also did not approach it in a sustainable pace. I burned out so fricking hard, like so hard. And I am still living with the burnout from my books release.

Kelton:

That is so brutal to hear. I got so excited talking about the pitch deck and now I'm back in the, the trenches being like, oh

Emily:

No. No, but I think, here's the thing. here's the thing. You start much sooner than I did. And, and you like, and you approach it in a more sustainable way. I think I, there's also, I will say that there's so much emphasis in publishing on how your book does in the first week, in the first month. And I just would think so much more expansively than that.'cause think about all the books that you read that you do not discover in the first week or first month. Right? And so I think you wanna think how readers find your book and, and take a little weight off of that initial period.

Kelton:

I, uh, I'm not like a, a. book club reader, I'm not reading something that's coming out at Barnes and Noble that week. Books I read are, are at least three years old, if not 50. So I, I think that is a good thing to keep in mind. But it is, you kind of are driving toward that bestseller list. There's kind of nothing more sticky in a bio than those words. But now that you're on the tail end, are you still promoting the book? Do you find yourself still being like, go buy this post order?

Emily:

This question makes me anxious because I should be doing a lot more. I feel like I'm still living in the burnout from its release. no, and I think, again, I'm someone who I need to like, probably like a great way to invest my money would be to hire someone who could coach me to more unapologetically embrace. It's something that I, I do not love to do and does not come naturally. And I get squirmy about it. And when I see authors promoting their book, I'm never like, oh my God, stop talking about your book. I'm like, you wrote this great book. I love that you're talking about it. But with myself, I'm like, uh, Emily, no one wants to hear about you talking about your book anymore. And so I think, um, it's, that's, that's been a big challenge for me of, of like really embracing the. Both the necessity of promotion, but also that like, it's, can I swear on this podcast? Yes. Yeah. Like, it's totally fucking fine. It's great to be talking about this, this, work that we do and that, and this work that we want people to discover and to, to not feel, that kind of itchy insecurity about doing it.

Kelton:

Okay. So you're gonna work on self-promotion.

Emily:

Yes.

Kelton:

what do you have to promote? What are you working on now?

Emily:

I mean, nothing really to promote. I, now I'm working on a mix of things. I guess I'm also, I'm just. back into writing regularly after not writing regularly for a little bit. It honestly took me a really long time to write again after my book came out. I think again, burnout and then because of how vulnerable my book was, I think I had a vulnerability hangover to work through for a bit. And then I also have perfectionism as a constant thing that I am fighting in my writing. And I think I felt the pressure after writing the first book of like know, what's your next book? Why aren't you working on that yet? And I will say that it's a thing that, that if you're paying attention to what other people are doing in the world, is a thing that I had to not get to. Too overwhelmed by was, I was in this slack group of authors who debuted in 2024. And a lot of people would be like, how are you dealing with your release date? And people would be like, well, I'm already done my second book and now I'm is on submission. There are people who are operating at all kinds of paces and I think I felt about how my pace compared to those people. I also appreciate that that just is not the right kind of writer that I'm ever going to be, and I needed some time after my first book came out to to not be writing. But when I did get back into writing, I fell in love with poetry. And now I can't stop writing poetry, even though it's I'm, some days I'm like, Emily, why are you writing poetry? This is not your next book. But I think it's been the best thing because a new genre for me. And so I don't feel that same pressure with it. I don't feel like I need to be doing anything with it, and I can just play. And I think any genre you're exploring is gonna. Benefit your writing practice. I think I'm becoming a stronger prose writer as I'm also playing with poetry. And I think giving myself that permission to play and have fun and not care what happens with it is so, so helpful. And so, right now I'm trying to write a poem every day this month, which is just like a good generative challenge. And then what I am doing with my writing never matches what I want to be doing with my writing. But, I hope that I'm also writing into another book project. And then, the other bucket of work that I play with is either essays for Substack, which I haven't published on in probably at least three months or essays for other, other purposes. But those are kind of the things I tend to spend time on.

Kelton:

It's great. Well, I would pre-order whatever book you write next. I really loved your writing and I'm glad that you took it from essay to, a full book length. I found it very inspiring to know that that's your path. It's a similar path that I am on. It's motivating and I appreciate that. But I get that. I've also thought, is so embarrassing to say, but in the writing of my proposal, I've already thought, well, what could you possibly write after this? And it's like, well, life keeps going. Your character will experience things. Don't worry. Hang on to your

Emily:

Kelton you, the amount that you write. I have no concern at all about you writing another book after your first one, but when you're like, I'm writing two essays a week and also a novel and also this memoir, and it's like, I just would never ever worry about you coming up with ideas to turn into writing. I think that's, and I can't wait to pre-order your book. It's,

Kelton:

very

Emily:

will be, I will be like, click add to cart right away.

Kelton:

Tell me a little about what you're reading right now.

Emily:

Right now, speaking of not reading books right after they come out, I'm currently reading Margaret Wrinkles, the Comfort of Crows. Margaret Wrinkle is, yeah, an essay writer for the New York Times. And I think this book probably,'cause it's about 2020, so I don't know what year it came out, but this year for sure. I think at least a few years ago. That's currently on my bedside table. And normally I have I don't know if you guys are a many books at once kind of reader, but normally I have a book I'm reading at night that's usually fiction in the mornings. I'm reading memoir and poetry. And I feel like I'm in such a fiction dry spell right now. I need to find something that hooks me and just like keeps its claws in me to get me back into it.

Kelton:

I am a many books reader at once. I have them scattered through the house, according to like I like to read in that space. Yeah, there's books everywhere, but I will say the toddler has like really reduced reading time, which is such a bummer, because I, I love to read and I, every time I'm really reading a bunch of stuff at once, I can see how dramatically it improves my writing and my inspiration too. but just seeing them around, I'm like, I can't wait to pick you up soon, my friend.

Emily:

Yes.

Kelton:

all right. Tell me, top three favorites. Doesn't have to be literally the top three, but what are some books that stand out that you've read that, where you're like, I think about this book all the time.

Emily:

Oh well. I'll tell you some recent ones. This is always such a hard question. I'm physically looking at my bookshelves right now. But, Kelton, I think I recommended this book to you at some point. And now I have, I think I recommended it to you before I read it, and now I recommend it even more. Helen Whybrow's the salt stone. It's this woman, she is a Vermonter, so I love it for that reason. But she's a shepherd in Vermont and she wrote about her. Years shepherding through a seasonal lens. So it's not like a year of seasons. It's like using seasonally rooted stories to write about shepherding. By the time I was done reading it for the first time, I think in my life I wanted to return to Vermont to take over my parents' property and become a shepherd. She's a beautiful writer it was long listed for the National Book Award. Another book Poet Square, the PO poet square, I think is what it's called, by Courtney Gustafson, I think is her name. I dunno if I'm saying that right. But she into a house in Tucson that was, uh, overlapped with the territory of around 30 feral cats. And, um, and it, I feel like talk about serendipity to be a writer who moves into a place on Poet Square that has just such a, like, rich, you know. Invitation to write, just living there. And so she tells all these stories through, like stories about her own life through different cats that she has met in her time living at Poet Square. Um,

Krisserin:

Kelton is Melting. on the screen right now. my dream. Can you imagine how

Emily:

right.

Kelton:

moved into a place and there were 30 cats. I'd be like, I'm

Krisserin:

That is my nightmare.

Kelton:

There's a cat in my lap right now.

Krisserin:

I love cats. 35 feral cats would be a really hard sell for me.

Kelton:

change their lives forever.

Emily:

Yeah. And then she like got sucked also into like whatever kind of, I don't think it's like cat rescue, but like helping the population of feral cats in the greater Tucson area. Going around and like, like finding other properties that were overrun with feral cats and like spaying them and

Kelton:

TNR.

Emily:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's just all, it's, the book is flooded with cats more than 30 cats.

Kelton:

both of these.

Emily:

I feel like I need to throw a fiction one in there. I would agree with Olivia that, I listened to that conversation yesterday and, Emma Patis Tilt was extremely readable. I also tore through that and being in the Pacific Northwest, the idea of the big one is a thing that we think about here. Earlier this year I read the three lives of Kate K by Kate Fagan, who's done a lot of like sports writing, and she's written memoir and this was her first fiction project and she's a great writer and it just was like, I tore it. It's very plot driven and very, very page turny. So that was also a good, good read.

Kelton:

Oh my God, I feel so excited to like, add these to my queue. I've had tilt in my queue forever. Um, I know that book is up my alley and I'm just, I'm just waiting.

Krisserin:

This is the earthquake one. Uh, right. See, I can't that like apocalyptic stuff, big disaster stuff. Just like I can't do it. It, just scares the shit outta me. I, I will have nightmares.

Emily:

it was like, it was almost too close to home because it's set in Portland and I'm

Krisserin:

Yeah, it said in Portland. Yeah.

Emily:

this like

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Emily:

like possible natural disaster and reading it was a little like. A.

Krisserin:

If my parents live in Portland, so it would be too close to home for me. Living in la. You know, I, think about it often. I'm always like, we just got our house done. I'm like, where would I stand in my house? I don't even know where in a door jam. I don't know. I'll just die under the rubble. It's fine.

Emily:

I used to work at the University of Oregon and I remember we would have meetings about the disaster plan if this happened. And my boss at the time was like, Emily, if this happens, we're not doing anything for the University of Oregon, like.

Krisserin:

I.

Emily:

It's every man for himself. appreciated that.

Krisserin:

It's true. Yeah.

Kelton:

All right. Um, thank you for stacking our reading list. Krisserin, is there anything else you wanna ask Emily?

Krisserin's audio backup and 1 other:

Kelton's been talking about to the Gorge for quite a long time, so it was very, very nice to hear about your writing experience and I feel like my brain is just filled with ideas now of things that I wanna go off and do. So I appreciate all of your wise words. Emily and I feel energized and excited to work this week, which I've, doesn't happen.

Emily:

Well I also,

Krisserin:

I've done something.

Emily:

having this conversation is similarly, I am like, okay, maybe you should go and like. Do something to tell anyone in the world that your book exists this week. And I just, I appreciate the accountability relationship that you two foster here, and that then, like when you listen to the conversations, you're like, well, what is my writing goal this week and how will I get it done? And so I, I feel similarly moved to down and do some stuff.

Krisserin:

I love hearing that. That's great. Yeah. I think if I didn't have Kelton. Knowing that I'm gonna talk to her every week and she's gonna ask me how I did. It's, it does do a lot to get me to sit down every morning. I'm just so thrilled that other people get something out of it.'cause I get so much out of it, you know? But, um.

Kelton:

on goals with us. We need like a community forum where people are

Emily:

Oh.

Kelton:

a Slack group where it's like, tell us your goals this week we're watching.

Emily:

I like that. I will say this didn't come up, but one of the most helpful things to me in actually getting my book done was having accountability friends. Like I had a couple of writers that I would have Zoom dates with and we would just like. Sit on Zoom and write together. And then I had a friend who has very tragically moved away from Eugene since. But um, once a week we would meet at a coffee shop in town and we would sit there for like three or four hours and we would start by talking about like a lot of the things you guys talk about, like rejection and imposter syndrome and all the things we face as writers. And then we would sit and write together for hours. And then once a month we would workshop each other's writing and having her throughout the writing, like just having that kind of. Person, whether you're sharing goals or writing time just can make such a difference and having that comradery in the process.

Krisserin:

I, my dream is that other people will find their pen pals and, and emulate what Kelton and I do. We don't write together. But, there was an article in, I think it was the LA Times that came out this week. about five writers in LA who met at some Italian restaurant and every week and worked on their books. And they were, they're very, you know, they're well-published authors, so it, it makes sense that LA Times would pick up that story. But imagine meeting in, in real life, but like doesn't happen in LA ever.

Kelton:

week.

Krisserin's audio backup and 1 other:

was like,

Kelton:

Well, I can imagine the drive

Krisserin's audio backup and 1 other:

before, before the pandemic. It Before the pandemic. It did happen. I mean, we would go to classes on campus at UCLA, I was in a writer's group and we would meet weekly. And had someone come from Pasadena and I, was in Westwood and we would all converge and meet. But I feel like post pandemic, it's really hard to get people to drive across town. But maybe that should be a goal. Maybe we should try and do an not. But find someone in our respective areas of the Western United States to meet up with and have a little writing date. That would be fun.

Kelton:

hit and you're not gonna be able to use the freeways at all. So take

Emily:

So

Kelton:

of the

Krisserin's audio backup and 1 other:

Thanks Kelton.

Emily:

you can.

Krisserin's audio backup and 1 other:

Lord.

Kelton:

Alright, Emily, it has been such a hoot having you on. This is so great. Everybody, you have to get to the Gorge by Emily Halnon. Emily, can they find it in all the places per usual.

Emily:

They can find it in all the places that books are sold. Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

Krisserin:

Where can people follow you and subscribe to your substack?

Emily:

Yeah, I'm on the internet. I'm on Instagram as Emily sweats, like perspiration. And then, I'm on Substack. It's just my name, emilyhalnon.substack.com, I think it is, and it's trail mix. The newsletter is called Trail Mix.

Kelton:

awesome.

Krisserin's audio backup and 1 other:

that. Thank you so much, Emily. It's been such a pleasure having you on the pod.

Emily:

you. Thank you both. It was so fun to be here. I can't wait to keep listening and reading both of your books.

Kelton:

Uh, I love Emily. Um, she's the best. But we do have to talk about goals. I know, I know we've got some big goals left to get through for the end of the year. Um, but how are we parsing it out this week? What's your approach?

Krisserin:

night I actually went to a full moon yoga. Session,

Kelton:

Oh.

Krisserin:

was really fun. And during the session, the instructor, her name's Kyan. I love her. She's, in my opinion, one of the best yoga instructors in Los Angeles. Had us journaling about, it in the beginning, middle and end. It was, now I'm gonna forget. Three R words. One of them was realign, one of them was reaffirm. And the first one, I'm going to completely forget what it release. Thank you. I found myself journaling about writing, which to no surprise, the things that I needed to let go, the things that I needed to kind of re like reground myself on and, what I wanted to continue moving forward with. And so the practice that I've been engaging in has been really helpful actually on Monday,'cause I'm a psycho and it was daylight savings. I got up at three 30 to write. I was channeling Chelsea Hodson. I got up at three 30 without an alarm. I wasn't intentional. Think that my body was just like, it's 5:00 AM and so I just got out of bed and sat down at my desk at four and I wrote for. Over two hours. It was great, but I think continuing that practice is important for me. It does feel like something that I'm doing in service to myself, but the thing that I wanted to reaffirm was the reason why I'm writing and the why behind it, because I feel like I've gotten lost in how to build a story and build a climax. And what I want to remind myself of is that I'm not trying to teach a lesson or, you know, spread a gospel. I'm just trying to tell stories about people, the way that I think that they move in the world and how the, the reality of the world that we live in fiction. So was really. helpful to really get me to think about my writing in a way that is really freeing and just reminding myself that I do have a story to tell that's important and valuable and unique. And so going to move forward through the next week hopefully, feeling the confidence that those affirmations gave me and continue to get up and just do the work. But I have, quite a lot of work left to do. Just like looking at my spreadsheet, I was so off when I said I had like six chapters left. I have like, I don't know, 10 chapters left probably. So I'm just gonna keep going. My plan, my goal is to done with the second book by December 1st, I think. And I think I can do it. I don't

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

I have about, 24,000 words left to write, but I think I can do it.

Kelton:

I think you can do it. I don't think you can do it this week, but I think you could do it by December 1st.

Krisserin:

I think so too. Not edited, but like just a spaghetti draft done by December 1st.

Kelton:

So just to remind my listeners, the memoir proposal I'm working on is broken into five sections, and within each of those sections, there'll probably be about three chapters. And so I want to have, six additional chapters to the ones that I've. Written, outlined and like slotted into which section they go, which I think is a very achievable goal for this week. Um, you know, if the plan is to finish the chapter outlines and amp up the proposal by Jan one, um, I think the first thing I have to do is really focus on the chapter outlines and then that will like breathe more ease into the selling part of it. So that's my plan for this week. I, I've already this week finished the, newsletter. I took a shortcut on this one. I am publishing some old work for me. It's work that the audience hasn't seen. I was very inspired by the Olivia Muenter interview we did, where she was just like sharing. That she was working on fiction. And I was like, why don't I just share like an excerpt of the fiction, like let it breathe a little, see what the reaction is. I've been feeling the protagonist of the novel, kind of like hot on my tails and I wanted to give her a little sunlight. This is the season the book is set in, and so I really felt her trailing me. So that's, that's my plan. Yeah, the class is done for me tonight and the newsletter's written, and I'm working on working on the memoir before I find out if I'm working for another client or not.

Krisserin:

Well, if you get stuck on the outline, may I suggest Excel as a good tool to use?

Kelton:

I cannot wait.

Krisserin:

All right, well, Kelton, I wish you best of luck on your goals this week. All the listeners out there, if you wanna get in touch with us, you know where to reach us at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com us at pen pals pod on all the social networks. If you love us, leave us a review. We appreciate a five or four star review. On Apple Music or Spotify and as always, happy writing.

Kelton:

Happy writing.

Head Shot

Kelton Wright

Co-host
Head Shot

Krisserin Canary

Co-host
Head Shot

Emily Halnon

Guest