Pen Pals

Long-time Readers and Short-Lived Aunties: A Thanksgiving Gratitude Special

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 2 • Episode 10

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When you're chasing publication dreams and battling rejection, gratitude feels like a luxury. But Krisserin and Kelton argue it's actually a practice—one that keeps you grounded when writing feels impossible. In this candid Thanksgiving conversation, they explore gratitude as a skill you build, not a feeling that arrives. They tackle the envy that lurks behind ambition, answer a listener's question about returning to abandoned projects, and get deeply personal about the people who've shaped their writing—from long-time readers who stuck with them for decades, to short-lived aunties who passed through their lives leaving permanent gifts. Krisserin celebrates a week of wild productivity. Kelton reflects on the readers who've been loyal since her Date by Numbers days. Both hosts reckon with how family, mentorship, and financial anxiety shaped their relationship to art. If you're oscillating between genuine gratitude and performative thankfulness, this episode holds space for both.

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Krisserin:

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton:

Hi, Krisserin

Krisserin:

Hi, Kelton. What a week. I have to say that Emily Halnon lit a fire under me. I don't know about you, but I had an incredibly productive. I spent all weekend thinking about this pitch deck that I wanna create for the book, and I did work on that. and as I was coming up with it, I realized. That my founder's story is lacking. And what I mean by that, when you create a pitch deck as a founder, you have big thing that you're trying to solve for, which is your whole reason for being and why you decided to start the company and what your network looks like. And I just realized that I didn't have a great story behind not so much my book, but more around my platform. You

Kelton:

Hmm.

Krisserin:

don't, I have private social media and, I don't have a substack except for I do have a substack. So, For me, I was thinking about how can I start to build a platform? And so I spent this week writing. I did get a ton of writing done. I can't even tell you how many, I think I got around like six or 8,000 words written in the last four days. and what I've been doing is working on essays that I'll publish on substack that I'm working on that'll go live on Saturday. That'll be just about my publishing and submission experience.

Kelton:

Cool.

Krisserin:

well, I just felt like that conversation with Emily was so empowering And I think that reporting from the trenches of how things are going is immensely useful for

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

And so I'm gonna do that and share my pitch deck and all of the materials I'm pulling together. So I'll be publishing there, and then been recording myself writing in the morning and creating tiktoks about it, and posting them to my TikTok. And actually doing that has made me more productive because I have

Kelton:

Oh no.

Krisserin:

it's like mini accountability, so I talk to you once a week, but recording myself and creating little videos about my, word count progress makes me want to write more and be more productive

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

when I do sit down. Because a lot of times I'll sit in front of my computer at five o'clock in the morning and then I'll be like, lemme check my email. And

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

I gotta

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

Oh, let me open up Facebook. Or like, Ooh, there's a sale at Beyond Yoga, it's 30%. And I'm like, I find myself wasting my precious morning minutes doing shit I shouldn't be doing. So all is that to say is that, I'm so grateful to the conversation we had with Emily because it really lit a fire under me and My week was great. And then this morning I wrote, I, I woke up at four. It's like my eyes popped open and I had an idea for the climax of my book that was wildly different than how the novel had been plotting, which is great'cause it surprised me, which means it'll surprise the reader.

Kelton:

Yes.

Krisserin:

I wrote this morning, like almost 2,400 words or 2300 words Through to like the middle of that scene. And I had to stop because I had to get up and get my kids ready for school. But it's been a good week

Kelton:

That's

Krisserin:

writing

Kelton:

amazing. That's so good. Oh, that makes me so happy.

Krisserin:

And I owe it all to Emily. So thank you for being her friend and bringing her on the pod. And I've talked about our conversation with her to like so many people already. I just felt like it was so, it is so nice to hear a real story about how writers are thinking about their books and how they're solving these problems, so gonna

Kelton:

Yeah. I also, I really appreciated too, the realism around platform. You know?'cause you'll just hear all these platitudes online that are like, if it's good enough, the platform doesn't matter. And it's like. Yeah, but like, not all of us are gonna be once in a generation talents, like most of us need a fucking platform. And understanding what that can look like, how to shape it, ways around that I think is really, really important and, and realistic. So, Emily and I originally had that conversation in the woods, and then I was like, you have to come on the podcast, like, preach to the people, my friend.

Krisserin:

Unfortunately when I, I put these things into ai, they were like, you should have five to 10,000 followers on

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

I'm like, cool, I've got 160.

Kelton:

Use the slot machine, Krisserin. Like, get enough videos on there.

Krisserin:

listen. I tried it because I wanted to see,

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

a video, like you can get more, you can, you can get more views if you just spend a little bit of money. So I was like, you know what? Screw it. Let me try it. And I did. The first two videos I published. I did put money behind and not a ton. I think the first video I spent$20. In the

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

I spent 10.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

And the thing is. I do this for a living. So I'm in the analytics and I'm looking at the metrics and I quickly realized, first of all, they completely lie to you. They're

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

much money, you can get this many followers, and they promised like 500 followers and there's just no way. I think I got

Kelton:

Right.

Krisserin:

I, my cost per follower was around a dollar a little bit more.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

Um, and then I did a video views campaign the second time, and it did get like a significant amount of views, but what I found out was that 50% of the engagement that I was getting was not in the U.S. I was getting followers in the UAE and I'm like, oh, cool. So can't even control that. You cannot control

Kelton:

right?

Krisserin:

country that you wanna target. I mean, if I was to create like an ads manager account, I could get more granular, but then it served to you as an ad. And I'm like, okay, well that's stupid. So I tried, I wanted to see what happened, and of course I published my first video this morning without the amplification and I just don't know how it's gonna do, but

Kelton:

Yeah,

Krisserin:

doing it because that's what, how you learn, you know? So I'll just keep posting and seeing what happens.

Kelton:

that is a motivation for me to start doing that as well. I did go through a phase when I was promoting the class where I was really into TikTok and I got a few successful videos talking about tarot and, and broomsticks and stuff. But I just burned out on, it just takes so much ideating and being on your phone and filming and having the little gremlin around. I was like, I don't wanna have my phone with me this much. So it just, you know, I, I do wanna amp it up going into like, query mode just'cause it's like you've gotta start hitting some numbers and I'm willing, I'm willing to put like 200 bucks against it, you know? But that's about, that's about all I can invest in that platform. All right, Krisserin, and it sounds like you hit your goal, which was to figure out your climax. I'm glad it came to you at the, the final hour.

Krisserin:

I will say, I'm just like making shit up. I

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

this idea that's really wildly different than how the technology in my book works. So I have to figure out a way to make it believable, but I was really excited about trying it and it might not work. I might have to completely rewrite it and change it,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

fine. I'm just playing right

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

And, I got excited about the idea and I went for it and so we'll see how it nets out. But for right now, I'm, I'm happy. Um, how was your week? How was your, working on the me? I think your. Your goals for the last week were three chapters into the outline. You wanted to write three cha. You wanted to write three chapters,

Kelton:

No, I wanted to, so for the framework of the proposal, you need to outline what every chapter is going to be. And I had like a, I had a very short version of this in the proposal I had reviewed by a friend, and so I wanted to fully outline three chapters within the outline, anywhere in the outline. And immediately after we got off with Emily, I got sick, which I think you can still hear in my voice. So things slowed down a little bit, because Ben also got sick and so did Woods, and so Woods had to miss some daycare. And I had to miss some work, but I did get two out of three chapters outlined. So, I was like, that good enough, fine by me. I will take it. So things are still moving along and, you know, again, to Emily's conversation, it, it really affirmed the way that I'm thinking about working on the proposal and the, the things I wanted to work on in November and December. So, you know, um, I'm feeling pretty, pretty wet under the weather. But That's okay. That's fine. It happens. I have a toddler I'm gonna feel under the weather for the next like three years.

Krisserin:

Especially as he goes to preschool more and more often. Is that how you guys all got sick? Is this a preschool bug?

Kelton:

Yeah,

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

it sure is.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

what? Look on the bright side. You guys are all building your immunity.

Kelton:

Yeah. I know. I, I keep saying that to myself and myself. Doesn't like it.

Krisserin:

Yeah, Well, let me ask you, is it snowing yet?

Kelton:

No, but it is, it is on the forecast and so you can kind of see all the activity in town. Like people are really, are really getting stuff ready. For the incoming snow. Normally the first snow like fully melts out, so it's sort of like a, a precursor. And this is very late for us to be getting our first big snow end of November. It's a little concerning, but, I'm hoping it is a big one and not just a dusting. But we'll see. We'll see

Krisserin:

I thought of you because I don't know, when was the last time you watched Gilmore Girls,

Kelton:

It was. when I was, postpartum.

Krisserin:

Okay, so recent. Somewhat recently.

Kelton:

That was the first time I watched it.

Krisserin:

the first time. Okay. Well, I've rewatched it so many times now, which the more I rewatch it, the more I'm finding it problematic. But I

Kelton:

Oh my God. Oh my God. My first time watching it, I was like, Rory is a terrible person. Dean is a stalker. Like,

Krisserin:

psycho.

Kelton:

he's terrible. I couldn't, I couldn't watch. I couldn't watch. I just hated so many. So much of Rory like just cut her from the show.

Krisserin:

I mean, Lorelei's pretty awful too, but

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

just. Yesterday I watched a scene where she dragged Luke out of bed. I think I'm in season five, so I'm almost done with my rewatching. And she's like, do you smell it? Do you smell it? It's gonna snow. And it's her big thing like season one, she had a similar scene where she woke Rory up in the middle of the night and opened the window and sure enough it started snowing. And I was like, look, it's Kelton. She's just waiting for the snow to come.

Kelton:

Yeah, it's true. I hope I'm not as problematic as a mother as she is, but I am pretty excited about the snow and Woods is so jazzed to have some like lights going up around the house.

Krisserin:

Yeah. That little picture that you about him, closing his eyes in the sun was so precious and I just wanted to be there too. I was like, I wanna go lay next to Woods and Kelton in the sun, in the

Kelton:

was a magical moment. I was teaching him the value of just laying in the sun on a windless day.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

uh, such a dream.

Krisserin:

Well, I think that that, segues perfectly into our topic for today. We had such a downer episode last week that I thought this week it would be good to, for us, especially since this episode is going to go live the week of Thanksgiving to talk about gratitude and the things that we are grateful for and how we find it. what it looks like for each of us. And before we dive into that, I wanted to shout out a listener who wrote into us and how grateful I am that we have people who will write to us. But we have a listener question, I thought I would answer it. Yeah. So I'm, I'm gonna butcher her last name probably, but her name is Carly di DiBiase. But Carly wrote into us and she has been a, a follower on our, I think she's like one of the only people who follow us on the pen pal substack, but she does. And she wrote in, and she said. Hi there. I was listening to the most recent episode, and Krisserin, you mentioned that you have been going back to work on a book you had previously abandoned. I was hoping you might be able to share on a future episode if either of you have any tips for how you dig back into a project after some time away from it. I've taken a few months off from writing my book and am really struggling to figure out how to get back into it after being removed for some time.

Kelton:

Hmm.

Krisserin:

Good question.

Kelton:

Well thank you Carly. Carly of the Deebs Digest on Substack.

Krisserin:

Yes. Everyone should go and, follow Carly Substack. It's the Deebs Digest, so it's the D-E-E-B-S digest.substack.com. So to answer her question. I did, I did put this second book down for quite a while after I was so discouraged by the querying process of the first book, but it's not the first time I've picked up a project that I set down for a while, and I actually think setting a project down giving it time is a really important, at least for me, part of the writing process. I think that when you are so in a story. And so in a book, you become blind to a lot of the things that are not working about it. So, you know, even with the incredible Gustafson women, I think I put that book down in, gosh, I wanna say 2016, and I picked it up intermittently between then and 2022, reading through it. The second time, I was a stronger writer. I could identify things that weren't working. I just had a better toolbox and it made approaching that draft so much easier the second time around because you just see the project so much more clearly. So I think that if you are struggling to get back into a project, maybe it's too soon,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

it's worthwhile to consider working on something else for a little while before you dive back in. But if for some reason you really feel compelled to pick the project back up again. Whatever you can do to see that project with fresh eyes is really important. I do think after having done this my agent, and even hearing from other writers that we've talked to, mainly Chelsea Hodson, reading your book out loud, I think is a really great step getting back into the feel of the novel. And you get to hear the words and, and hear the things that are working and not working and taking notes on it. So much as Kelton laughs at me for printing out my book. Print the book out, have it physically in your hands, read it out loud, take notes as you're doing it, and just allow yourself to approach the novel as if you're reading it for the first time. Again, as much as possible. And that's what I really did inadvertently with the books that I'm working on now, because I read the first book to my

Kelton:

Again.

Krisserin:

and then after I was done revising it, I read whatever I had of the second book written myself in the mornings, and that enabled me to revise it and, and make it feel more, in tune with the first book because I hadn't actually looked at them together in a while. And I had changed some stuff after revising the first book that needed to be implemented for the second book. But then I was off to the races and I actually talked to you about that in the season. Where I got to the end of what I'd written and now I had to start writing again. And I think that I wouldn't have been able to do that if I hadn't approached the book the way that I had. So those are my recommendations. Kelton, what about you?

Kelton:

I like to hang out with my characters a little bit and see what they've been up to while I've abandoned them. I love the idea that your characters are just living a life without you. That's not the story'cause nothing's really happening. It's like that, your regular day, day-to-day experience. And I like to write about what my characters were doing and it helps me kind of get to know them better. And it's also so low stakes because I'm not gonna include any of that in the book. It's not interesting, but it informs how I think about them moving forward. I had mentioned on Shangri Logs, I shared an excerpt of the novel that I tabled to work on the memoir because I could kind of feel the protagonist of my novel egging me. Like she just, it just felt like she was like following me in the woods. Like, are you, it's my season. Are you gonna work on me? Can work on me. And because I'm an oddball and I'm alone in the woods, I will talk to that character and be like, what's going on? What are you, what are you feeling? And see what percolates to the surface.'Cause you know, it's just like, that's who I'm hanging out with when I'm writing it. And it's like picking up with an old friend, you know, you're sort of like, so are you still at that job? Are you still dating that fucking loser? You know, you gotta get the basics first and it feels awkward because you're like, we're friends. I should know. But if you haven't hung out in a little while, you need to get those, those building blocks established before you can be like. Is this still because of your mother? It takes a second to get there,

Krisserin:

true. It's like you really wanna ask, but you gotta get through the bullshit

Kelton:

Uhhuh. Totally.

Krisserin:

Totally. totally. I completely understand that. Amazing. Well, Carly, I hope that answered your question and it was helpful, and Carly's been such a great supporter pod and on Substack, and we're so grateful for you and for everyone else who writes into us and follows us and amplifies our content because we're trying to build a platform here, ladies and gentlemen.

Kelton:

No, I'm so grateful for our pod listeners and anyone who subscribes to anything we do. Like what a, what a joy

Krisserin:

Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, let's talk about what else we're grateful for. Kelton was very prepared and she put some questions into our

Kelton:

I did.

Krisserin:

document because I suggested the idea and then I did nothing to prepare so.

Kelton:

Well, I, you know, I've obviously, like a lot, a lot of my career has been in mental health. So I have thought about and written about the idea of gratitude many times, and I have many times tried to integrate it into my life in a more substantial way. And so I, I kind of like, I did wanna ask like, do you think that gratitude is more of a feeling or a skill?

Krisserin:

Huh, that's a great question.'cause I do think it's something that you have to build up. I don't think it's something that intuitively comes to you, even as a parent. You have to teach your children gratitude.

Kelton:

Yeah. I mean,

Krisserin:

something

Kelton:

they call it a practice, you know?

Krisserin:

it doesn't just come out of the womb where they're like, wow, I'm so grateful my mother keeps me alive. Like, that's not how it works. That's why you hear these cliche stories of like, do you know there are children starving in Africa?

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

honestly, I've had to have those conversations with my kids. Often, and even my husband, by the way, who is the biggest griper that you'd ever met, and I have to keep telling him, honey, these are the best days of our lives.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

You know, we're in our early forties. we have financial stability. We're healthy, our parents are alive,

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

are healthy and thriving. Like let's thing that you're bitching about that's happening at work? Yes. It's annoying. Work is annoying, but everything else is okay

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

I don't think that you've, sometimes it takes something bad happening for you to realize. How good you had it, whether it's

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

your health or a family member or financial or whatever it may be. So it's one of those things like you don't know what you have until you lose it. You kind of, you, it makes me pause and want to take a moment to acknowledge what I have. I try to practice gratitude

Kelton:

Mm-hmm. Listen, I think having,

Krisserin:

the happiness daily, you

Kelton:

I think having a griper in the house actually makes me more grateful.'cause I have a similar structure in my house where I'm like, look at our life. It's incredible. Like, what are you wanting for? I spend a lot of my days wanting, like, I want an agent, I wanna finish this proposal. Like, I want more financial stability, I want, and when I want, and I want, and when he wants, I'm like, everything is amazing. So it does help me, help me look around to have a little griping.

Krisserin:

Well, I think that we are living in a world where we are encouraged to constantly want more and not appreciate what we have.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

being sold to. We're always being shown things from people whose lives are completely unattainable. Elon Musk is gonna be the first trillionaire, I hope he gets testicular cancer. I don't care if that bothers people. I hate that man. So I think that, you know, there are so many people that don't have. And there are so many people that have so much, I have to constantly remind myself like, you don't need more. You

Kelton:

No.

Krisserin:

more. And the goals that you have for yourself will come with hard work. But I feel like we came up in a world where we were fed this lie of ambition and career drivenness and capitalism. We're deprogramming ourselves and it's hard to do. You know,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

like when everything goes to shit, buying yourself a little something to make you feel better is a shot of dopamine that you need just to get on with your day. But we have everything we need to feel good about our lives. It's just hard to remember that when we're constantly being marketed to. And I am partly to blame for that'cause it's literally how I make my living. But.

Kelton:

Yeah, and I mean, this season is the worst for it. It's just like, are you buying gifts for all the people you know? Why not buy a gift for yourself? Buy two, get half of one. So technically like buy three and then maybe buy four. And you're like, no, no, I don't want to, I don't need any more clothes. I don't need something to thicken my hair. I don't need a new blow dryer. I did, one thing I am super grateful for is that I finally, after like three years, went to get my hair done. And the hairdresser and I were talking about the curling iron that I have. I've had it since I was 10 years old. It is a 30, it is a 30-year-old curling iron that I got from my uncle's, very short term wife who at the time was a. What's the, like, the polite term for like a night dancer? I know there's like a right word to use. She was a stripper.

Krisserin:

dancer. Exotic dancer.

Kelton:

she was an exotic dancer. And she got me my first curling iron and she like unlocked my voyage into beauty. So bless her.

Krisserin:

her.

Kelton:

I listen, I thought, I thought she was the fucking shit. I loved her.

Krisserin:

your life for a season. Blessed you and left.

Kelton:

know I did eventually write a college submission essay about when I started using conditioner. I wish I, I wish I could find that essay so badly.

Krisserin:

Oh man, you know, I also had a short-lived aunt and she taught me how to French braid. And

Kelton:

Nice.

Krisserin:

that skill has served me as a mother

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

some of these moms out here do not know how to French braid and. And it is a hard thing to learn how to do.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

she let me practice on her hair. God knows, I probably was ripping it out of her head. so yeah. I mean,

Kelton:

Yeah. Grateful. Grateful to short-lived aunties of all sizes.

Krisserin:

Amen. I mean, and do we blame them for leaving our uncles?

Kelton:

I mean, I, I actually think my uncle was, was in the right. My uncle's a good dude.

Krisserin:

Uncles. They're great. But I can understand. love my uncles. They're my favorite, but

Kelton:

shout out to my uncle. I don't think he listens to this. I would be very surprised to find out Uncle Bob is here, but if he is, I love you, Bob,

Krisserin:

than one uncle who had a short lived aunt. So you don't know who I'm talking about?

Kelton:

and that's why you get to write a novel that's inspired by your family.

Krisserin:

Yeah, there's just too many of us. It could be anybody.

Kelton:

I don't even know how we got here.

Krisserin:

I don't

Kelton:

Oh, I got my hair done and I was grateful. Yeah. Consumerism. That's what we're talking about.

Krisserin:

I wanna spit my water out. That's

Kelton:

Uh, all right. I wanna ask you another question, though.'Cause I do think that gratitude is a practice. I think it is something you have to have a skill. I think most of the time that you're feeling it, it's often more you, the feeling is more like love or relief or contentment. And you kind of have to like gratitude's, like icing. You gotta put on that cake

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

like, aha, I, I am grateful.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

What is the, what is the opposite of gratitude for you, and when do you think that serves you better?

Krisserin:

maybe resentment.

Kelton:

I know for me, I think it's like bitterness.

Krisserin:

Yeah. Yeah,

Kelton:

I wonder too, as I'm like, as I'm nesting in that feeling, as I'm like trying to like feel what that is for me, it just like, kinda like unveils itself to be envy.

Krisserin:

oh, interesting. Yeah. For me it's resentment because as a mother and as a writer, there are so many things that are constantly pulling me away from what I wanna be doing, and I look at the way that the world is structured and maybe it's envy a little bit because sometimes I like look at writers and be like, Hmm, must be, must be nice, must be nice. You can go on that retreat away from your family for a month, you know? So I could see how envy plays into that, but it can often just be resentment for the way that things shake out in my life and the caretaking that I have to do kind of independently. And I think resentment is a killer and I try to steer very clear of it and just look at it for what it is. And it's my frustration with things being unfair and try to the unfairness as much as I can and name it and address it. But that's, that's probably what I would say. It's like anything that's taking me away from the things that I want to be doing, even though everything else fills my cup, just the thing that, your ego, your inner most self wants for itself,

Kelton:

Yeah, I mean, I think I.

Krisserin:

have to, you, you can't feed that all the time because you have other commitments.

Kelton:

Yeah, I, I feel like gratitude, I really feel it. You know, when you make a smoothie and you pour it into a glass and it just like perfectly fills to the top

Krisserin:

No,

Kelton:

and you're

Krisserin:

and I just drink it out of the cup that I made.

Kelton:

listen, okay, well there is this like very satisfying moment where you just like eyeball ingredients, you blend them, you pour'em into a random cup you've chosen and it fits perfectly in the cup, and you're like, oh, fuck yeah. Like that for me is when I feel gratitude.'cause I feel like a lot of my life is like, everybody's just pouring in the cup at the same time and the, it's like splashing on the counter and I'm like, I look, I'm very grateful, but can you just stop for a second?

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

That's kind of what it has felt like lately. So my cup runeth over quite literally. Um, but it's getting on the counter and it's like getting all over my clothes. So.

Krisserin:

Yeah, I, I I can relate to that. I mean, being kind of like overstimulated and overburdened is a real thing. I feel con like constant, like my husband likes to be petted. My kids like to be petted. My dog constantly wants to be petted, and sometimes there's like a pile of living things on top of me. I'm like, get off of me. I love you all. I'm so glad you want me so badly, but I need some space. Leave me alone. Let me watch Gilmore Girls by myself in the bathroom or something.

Kelton:

All right. Speaking of things leaving you alone, what's a creative failure? You're grateful for now?

Krisserin:

I mean, have I had a creative success? I'm grateful for all of them. I've, you know, I, so the first, spoiler, spoiler alert, but the first blog that I'm gonna publish on Saturday is how I Hope being a failed tech founder, will help me sell my book. I think that inevitably when you extend yourself beyond the things that you are comfortable doing, you, there's a risk of failure. And it, more often than not, when you're trying to do something new and scary, you're going to fail at it, and it's the failure that you learn from, right? Being a tech founder like broke me. It broke me in a way that I don't think anything has ever broke me before because I was flying across the country. Putting myself out there asking for money, talking to people who had the keys to the kingdom, I didn't have a lot of respect for, to be honest with you.'cause I'm looking at their LinkedIn, I'm like, oh, you got this job because of nepotism or, know,

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

of the people in those roles come from very privileged backgrounds and I'm like this person and I come from different worlds and here I am trying to break into it my sheer ambition and charm I failed.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

It's important to understand the world that we're trying to break into and the limitations that we have and how to figure out how to navigate around them. I've had very few successes. But the failures are probably the things that I'm more grateful for because of the things that I'm like, okay, well, learning how to keep going in, in spite of those things has made me a stronger, better person, a better writer. And I just, God, I feel like it's gonna happen someday. It'll happen someday, and it might just be sharpening my blade until I'm so good that, you know, there's no ignoring it, but. don't know. I was thinking about this, like, what if, and I'm just gonna say it.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

I shouldn't manifest negative things, but what if my book doesn't sell?

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

It could happen. It,

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

I don't know what the odds are. Probably

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

up, but it could definitely happen. And then what am I gonna do?

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

sad and I'll just keep going. You know? What else? What else is there to do?

Kelton:

Yeah. I was listening to, shit No One Tells You about writing, another writing podcast. And, and they have this, shoot the shit segment with the two literary agents who host it. And they were talking about how, the publishing industry is an industry of exceptions. Getting the agent is the exception. Getting the book deal is the exception. Getting on the bestseller list is the exception. The whole industry is built around failure essentially. Like, that's like a, a huge part of the entire industry, the biggest part of it, really. And so, you know, I, we don't plan for the failure'cause you, there's nothing you have to do when it fails. You're like, well, okay. It is a, it is a possibility. So you gotta do it for the love of the game. Which I think is why I often put my attention elsewhere.'cause I'm like, I do, I love the game, but go, boy, do I love, do I love paying bills?

Krisserin:

Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. Now I'm feeling anxious.

Kelton:

Not on the gratitude episode. Come on.

Krisserin:

All right. Okay. Let's keep going. All right. What's the next question? What about you?

Kelton:

Well, oh, you, do you think, do you really think, I'm gonna say I'm grateful for any failure? No, I'm still mad. I'm a Capricorn. I'm gonna hold that to my chest till I die. I, you know, I do wanna visit a past project that like didn't really go anywhere. And maybe I don't wanna call date by numbers a failure'cause it definitely wasn't, it was a very sweet success in its own little way. But my dating blog in my twenties has given me the best readers a girl could ask for. When people email me to tell me that they are still reading from the date by numbers days to one, it's like kind of beautiful to have this like. These people who know me on a way, I, I don't think they understand how well they know me. Like they have watched me grow up and evolve and that the fact that they wanna stick around is so encouraging to me and like really tells me that I have to, like, I gotta do something with their loyalty. Like I gotta give them something worth sticking around for, like otherwise, you know, what am I doing? And I think about them a lot when I am in the doldrums. That's who I summon as my spirit guides is, I was like, there's people who love your writing enough, who to like to bridge the gap from like, twenties baby dating to lyrical essays and date by numbers. You know, it was really made fun of a lot when I was doing it, that like writing about dating was stupid and that it was vain and vapid. And I, you know, it was an amazing catalog in my life and I'm very grateful for that project, even though it turned into a, you know, a dead end book deal that didn't sell anything that I didn't never make money from. but it was a magical period of my life and it gave me some magical readers. So, stamp, grateful, notarized, put a wax seal on it.

Krisserin:

I mean, but you're couching your failure in a published book, so there's

Kelton:

All right.

Krisserin:

success

Kelton:

what, I don't even think you can buy that book anymore,

Krisserin:

I thought you could, I thought it's

Kelton:

can you, if you find it on Amazon or something? Oh boy. I haven't reread that book in a long time, so do as you dare.

Krisserin:

Amazing. What's a gratitude burnout moment that you've had when the practice felt hollow or performative?

Kelton:

This one, you know, when I wrote this question, I, this question is hard to answer because I don't know that there's a way I can answer it without seeming ungrateful, which is like the full point of the question. You know, it's like, when were you ungrateful?

Krisserin:

That's

Kelton:

When could you not,

Krisserin:

so that I didn't have to answer it.

Kelton:

when could you not perform it anymore? And I don't know. I mean, I think, I think some of that stems back to like when we work together and I was like, I'm so grateful for a seat at the table. I'm so grateful to B Girl busing my way to the top with all of my personal interests in the background. You know? And it's like, that was a time when I, I burned out on like the fakeness of gratitude. I was like, no, I'm, I'm not grateful that the kid who got hired through nepotism has been mysteriously on vacation for three months and still getting paid. You know, like I'm not grateful that the ideas that get picked are, oh, that person's, again, I, I wonder why, you know, those elements of work. I was like, I really struggled to have gratitude in that space, especially as the idea of having a job, job long term, like really collapsed around us. It was a, an illusion that like, you know, I was like, well, maybe I've made it through enough rounds of layoffs where I was like, I'm impervious. And it was like, no, you're just willing to take on like nine jobs. Like don't do that. Don't do that. and that, that was performative. But now, times when it feels performative are likely times you need to tap into what you are actually grateful for and practice the skill. Like performance is not the purpose of gratitude. Gratitude, the purpose is to anchor you in reality and allow you to find a path through the muck. And it, it doesn't have to be a beautiful path that's not like you're uncovering like the yellow brick road in the muck. You're uncovering like sticks that you can step on to like, kind of not get so bogged down. And so when it feels performative and when it, you're getting burned out on it, you're just not grateful for the right shit. And I always, then I go back to the basics top two on my list. Grateful list. When I'm like keeping like this, the gratitude journal stuff, rarely, but I do do it sometimes. Lungs, legs, those are top two on my list every time. So grateful to have strong lungs and strong legs and you know, once I, I establish those, I can, I can move out of my performance.

Krisserin:

Yeah. If you don't have your health, you don't have anything. Right. That's

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

Okay, well we got a couple more questions that you wrote.

Kelton:

Oh God. Listen,

Krisserin:

Um.

Kelton:

I wanna talk about more about writing. Like, what are you grateful for in your writing right now? I wanna keep that big. I know. this is a writing podcast. Welcome to the Wellness Hour with Kelton and Krisserin.

Krisserin:

Oh my goodness. You know, it's funny. When you were talking about we used to work together, my brain like went back there to that place and

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

I was thinking about, have you read the book Black Buck?

Kelton:

No.

Krisserin:

Yeah, because at for my brain went like, Ooh, we should write about, about that place. And then, wait, someone already did it and won like the National Book Award. I, I think that the world has changed so much so that people are, especially after COVID, so much more grounded in what really matters. But

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

boy were we, boy were we.

Kelton:

2015 baby.

Krisserin:

Yeah.

Kelton:

What a year.

Krisserin:

What a year. I had just come off of working at another place where I had faced pregnancy discrimination. So I had a little bit more of like

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

a realization of the place that we were working at and how toxic it was and how fake it was. But you do get really caught up in things, especially when you're young, and not knowing what's important and not knowing, you know. What, what you value. And I think as I've gotten older, we talked about this in the last pod, I just feel so much more clear on the things that are important to me and the things that I am grateful for. But back to writing, think that every morning that I'm like able to pull myself out of bed and sit in front of my computer. I'm grateful for my health. I'm really grateful that I quit drinking

Kelton:

Hmm.

Krisserin:

I've thought about this a lot. There's no way that if I was drinking way that I was drinking post pandemic, I'd be able to do this. It really, I was in such a fog during that time. It just takes such a toll on your body, you know? And so it's all of the practice that I put in around my writing

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

for. I'm really grateful that I had the means and live in a place where I could take classes and build my

Kelton:

Hmm

Krisserin:

The UCLA extension program. I mean, not all of the classes were great, but I did build a confidence there of sitting in a room with other writers and reading my work out loud, and learning what it was like to get feedback and how to know myself well enough as a writer to know what feedback was useful and what feedback was not. I found my mentor there, my teacher, Mark Sarvas, was teaching through UCLA extension. And I'm so grateful for him because he has read so much of my work and has been such a cheerleader for me over the years. Really, propping me up

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

I felt like I didn't know. What step to take next. I can just text him and he'll be like, Hey, I'll call you in an hour. And

Kelton:

Cool. Cool.

Krisserin:

and tell me I need to hear or ask me the questions that I don't know to ask myself about how I'm feeling about things. And so I think there's a lot to be grateful for, especially when it comes to writing. The fact that I have any time to do it at all, that I have things covered so that I can sit down and do it. I still feel like a baby writer. I still feel like there's so much for me to learn and to improve upon, which is why I am applying for an MFA program next year.

Kelton:

She is doing it.

Krisserin:

Yep. My application is due in Feb. I, I created my account and set it up and I asked, one of my, other mentors to write me a letter of recommendation. So I'm getting there. I've gotta submit my college transcripts. I was like, oh God. Gotta do that. Don't look

Kelton:

Oh my, oh my God. The legwork to even get your college transcripts.

Krisserin:

They make it, they make it kind of easy to do

Kelton:

Is this like, oh boy,

Krisserin:

yeah, I have to get them from like U-C-L-A-U-C-L extension and the Harvard extension, which is fine. but yeah, there's a lot to be grateful for, I feel. How about you? What are you grateful for in your, you have a lot to be grateful for with your writing as well,

Kelton:

yeah. You, you wanna list it for me?

Krisserin:

I can I can you

Kelton:

No,

Krisserin:

started with your, your

Kelton:

no. I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful to have moved here and found such inspiration through place. You know, it's been, I have obviously, like most people, my qualms with Substack as a platform. I think all platforms are inherently problematic at a point. And it is, but I am grateful for the growth that I've seen there and for the you know, for the way that this weird little town has just like kind of unlocked a new season in my writing, I don't think you need to upend your entire life to be, inspired in writing, but it definitely helps. I have done it many times and I'm always like, oh, there we go. That's what I needed. I'm grateful to have a partner who champions my writing above my career. Ben is like, we could live in a yurt in the middle of nowhere for free and you could just be a writer. Like, why don't you want that? And I'm like, ah.'cause I like nice things, Ben. I like the finer things in life and I'm gonna challenge myself to have both. Really grateful to have a partner who cries when he reads my writing. Like he just like, loves it. So that, that's really, really lovely. And I'm really, I'm grateful just that like I'm starting to see the light that like, this is where I, I should be focusing and this is what matters in my life. Many, many moons ago I was preparing to study abroad for the summer. And there was a two week gap between when I would lose housing at the university and when housing started in Italy. And I stayed at a friend's aunt's house near the university, to bridge that gap. And she was an Emmy winning writer for television and she was reading some of my writing and she told me, you have it. You have it. And I have never forgotten that.'cause she was like, yeah, you have to work really hard and you're gonna have to break down some doors and throw yourself at people. You know. You're gonna have to really champion yourself and do the work, but you have it if you want to do that. And I just, you know, I didn't, I never heard that about my art when I was younger. It was always like, go to business school. You're really good at math. You know, and I, I made that my whole personality. I was like, I'm gonna be an investment banker'cause I'm good at math and I like to make money. I really, I made a presentation in seventh grade about becoming an investment banker just because I wanted to have money. Which I, it was like so sad, like, so pathetic.

Krisserin:

we were coming off of Reagan's eighties and we were in the nineties, and you gotta give yourself some grace.

Kelton:

Oh my God. I think I just had weathered you know, my dad lost his job in the first dot.com boom. And I really I think I weathered that quite seriously as a child. I was very in tune to how my parents were feeling and would like, when I would go out to dinner with friends to like TGI Fridays, I would order a plate of tomatoes because I knew they would give it to you for free. And so like, I just didn't have to have money and so I, I just grew and like my parents never made me want for anything. I just was like, money is in unstable and I need to find a way to make a lot of it. And so it took me a long time to get back to wanting to work on art because I just, I had never seen anyone in my life be successful with art. I had no examples of that. I think, I think you're similar.

Krisserin:

Mm-hmm.

Kelton:

and it's just, it's really hard to believe in it when you don't see it. And so now finally being stable enough and like knowing I can, I can fix things if I have to. Gives me the belief that I can work on my art and my art can be worth something significant. And I have to reinforce that belief every week.

Krisserin:

But don't rely on the engagement on your, your essays to do that. Because

Kelton:

No.

Krisserin:

you, I'll tell you, I'll tell you.

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

I mean, that's really hard. We, we do have a similar background and I think one thing that I don't wanna leave this episode without saying, because I know she's listening, is I'm really grateful to my mom. You know, I'm gonna cry. I watched her growing up, writing all the time, she was writing screenplays and poetry, and she was very artistic, and she continually invested in herself. She took classes at community college and took ballet. And took photography. And so her art was in our house. Like we had so many art books and things that she had drawn and painted, and photos that she had taken of herself, portraits of her sisters. And so I had art around me and I had an example of someone who continuously worked and my mom still writes to this day, I call her in the morning when I'm driving home from dropping off my kids. I'm like, what are you doing, mom? She's like, oh, I'm working on the second book in my series and I'm combining it with the third, and my editor just sent me back notes and I'm, I'm thinking about this and like have someone to talk to about my. my writing all the time, who always encourages me, who watches every podcast episode that we publish. There's no way that I could do it without her.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

that's my example. You talk about how I like continuously just keep working in the background. I was taught how to do that by her.

Kelton:

That's really beautiful.

Krisserin:

I love you mom. She knows

Kelton:

I love you too, mom. Okay. My mom did teach me, she taught me to love animals. Okay. Which I write about all the time. My mom is not a writer, she's a wildlife biologist, but you know, she, she is deeply informed. Obviously I live in like a, a nature cave. Writing inspiration for me definitely came elsewhere. Art just wasn't a big part of my family. And so to be a little artist, you know, it's like, what are you gonna do if your parents aren't artists? Like, it's not like my parents were suppressing their art. They're just not into it. And so like, what? You know, they were like, well do art, but like, get a job.

Krisserin:

Well, I, my parents were the same, even, you know, my mom, very pragmatic. She's like, Hmm, what do you, you know, she never really had to tell me,'cause I always kind of had it, I knew that I had to get a job. Like I was never gonna move home and be a financial burden on my parents. So I knew I had to get a job and like, even though I wanted to work in editorial, like I got a job as a, as a web editor using my h TM L skills. I went through the same thing where I was very focused on how can I build a career and have stability and I will do these things on the side because I have to do them on the side. But I, I wasn't gonna abandon everything and just try and, and, uh, you know, go after my art. I also married an Eastern European immigrant who's very very money concerned. And so I feel a lot of, can't put everything on him as well. Like we, we, we have a lot of people to support not only

Kelton:

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin:

but extended family. And so that never goes away.

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

you're dealing with that now too, right? With just like, you can't just quit. You can't go live in a yurt

Kelton:

Well, I mean,

Krisserin:

if, even for lack of beautiful things. There are other things we have to pay for and

Kelton:

well, I, I, I could, we, we could, we could sell this house and like raise woods off the land. Do I want to No, no I don't. I don't know. Lots, there's lots to be grateful for in there. And, our writing practices above all else, like, that's what I'm grateful for. I'm grateful to like, have this thing that I know I wanna do that drives me forward. That sucks the life outta me sometimes, but always finds a way to buoy me. And I know a lot of people spend a lot of time being like, what is my calling? What is my purpose? And to, to know that is, you know, is something special, hard, but special. So knowing that, I think we gotta talk about our goals for the week ahead. I mean, it is when this comes out Thanksgiving, but when we record this, it is a regular week. So there will be goals.

Krisserin:

Yeah. But we are not talking for a little bit after this'cause we're gonna take a little break for the holiday. I think there will only be a week break for podcast listeners, so we won't see each other for I think like a couple of weeks. Which makes me sad because

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

thing I wanted to say that I was grateful for is you of course, and the

Kelton:

Duh.

Krisserin:

to duh.

Kelton:

I love you.

Krisserin:

And the time we get to spend each week talking about the things that drive us. And it's so nice to have your partnership and to have someone expecting something

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

week

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

me. So to talk about goals, I will not finish the book by the time next time we talk, but I, I do want to, closer. So my goal is to write. writing the way I am.

Kelton:

Okay.

Krisserin:

the climax. Get

Kelton:

Hold on.

Krisserin:

of the book.

Kelton:

Get closer to end of book. Okay. Krisserin, there it is. Goal is written and recorded.

Krisserin:

Kelton's writing it down'cause we didn't write'em down last week,

Kelton:

She says we, but it's, I, I am the one responsible for writing them down. I think my goal for next week is the same as it was last week. It's three more chapters. Once I have all of the chapters really outlined, the selling part, the pitch deck part is gonna be easy for me. I've been thinking about how this book lives in the market the whole time, and so a asking me to write more about that, I'm like, no problem. That's all I think about. So three more chapters outlined and,

Krisserin:

I guess non-writing related goals, but tangential goals is going to publish my first substack

Kelton:

ooh.

Krisserin:

And continue to post tiktoks even though they're like into the ether, into the void, because no one's looking at them. But I'm just gonna keep doing it and, hope that my little niche sticks, my little gimmick of how I'm doing it will stick.

Kelton:

All right. I'm also gonna put some tiktoks up.

Krisserin:

There you go. What's your handle? Is it at Kelton writes on tikTok,

Kelton:

Yeah, that's right.

Krisserin:

So clever.

Kelton:

Is it?

Krisserin:

So yes. I

Kelton:

Oh, boy.

Krisserin:

I'm just at Krisserin because I have, I own all of the domains and handles with my name on it.'cause

Kelton:

Yeah.

Krisserin:

other Krisserins

Kelton:

I got really fucked because, uh, another Kelton was one of like the first employees at Twitter, and he just like swooped every single kelton on every platform. He's like a real tech original.

Krisserin:

I hate him.

Kelton:

I mean, he's really nice. He's really nice.

Krisserin:

him.

Kelton:

Yeah. I reached out to him a long time ago to be like, you son of a bitch? And he was like, yeah, suck it. But, no, he is actually really nice.

Krisserin:

See, I always say if I, find another, Krisserin, it's Highlander roles, so you're,

Kelton:

Oh, I mean,

Krisserin:

me.

Kelton:

I, for when people say they've never heard the name Kelton before, I do say it's because I've been killing them off.

Krisserin:

See, I knew there was a reason why we were friends. All right, everybody. Hopefully this conversation about gratitude inspires you to think about the things that you're grateful for. Even, in this pursuit of writing, which is so daunting and so filled with rejection and dismay, there are things that we can find to be grateful for. Just the fact that we can down and we have the capacity to write the brains that are fresh enough. The fingers that are agile enough, I think is, are lungs and legs, baby.

Kelton:

Lungs and legs, and if you've got nothing to be grateful for, get yourself an accountabilibuddy..

Krisserin:

Accountabilibuddy. trademark. All right, everyone as always, please uh, send us an email. We would love to hear from you. We're at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com. Follow us on all the platforms at Pen Pal's Pod. You can also follow Kelton and I individually since we have to build our platforms on all

Kelton:

right.

Krisserin:

and until next time, writing.

Kelton:

Happy writing.

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Kelton Wright

Co-host
Head Shot

Krisserin Canary

Co-host