Slow Down. Do Less. Let the Creativity Flow | Season 2 Finale

Season two is officially in the books 🎉

This week, we’re doing something a little different: opening up the listener survey and sharing what surprised us, what made us laugh, what made us rethink things, and what we’re taking into season three.

We get into:

• The biggest takeaways from your survey responses
• Who’s actually listening (writers… and surprisingly, a lot of non-writers)
• The topics you want more of next season (writer burnout, mental health, money, motherhood, revision, and creative sustainability)
• What worked—and didn’t—with guest episodes
• Dream guests and future episode ideas
• How writers actually pay the bills
• Accountability partners, writing communities, and whether we should finally start a Pen Pals Slack
• What it means to pursue creative goals when life keeps happening

We also reflect on feedback we received this season, talk about how we think about criticism and community, and share what we’re excited to experiment with next.

Thank you for listening, emailing, sharing episodes, and spending another season with us. Whether you’re drafting your novel, revising, dreaming about starting, or just here for two friends trying to make something meaningful while juggling real life—we’re so glad you’re here.

See you in season three ❤️

Mentioned in this episode:
"real eyes realize real lies: on Yesteryear and selling out" by Haley at Brain Stew on Substack.

📋 LAST CHANCE to fill out the Pen Pals listener survey. Survey will close on 6/21. https://form.typeform.com/to/kIosWT3L 

Write to us:
officialpenpalspod@gmail.com

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

Kelton 0:00

Hi, Krisserin happy finale

Krisserin 0:02

Wow.

Speaker 0:03

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections

Speaker 2 0:12

and hopefully eventual success

Speaker 0:14

from California to

Speaker 2 0:15

Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton 0:17

We did it. Season two of Pen Pals

Krisserin 0:20

Season two of Pen Pals. I can't believe we're here, limping to the finish line.

Kelton 0:26

can you, like, hit me with some general stats about how few podcasts make it this far? I know somewhere that's in, like, the back of your brain because you have told me before

Krisserin 0:35

Oh, it's some crazy small number.

Kelton 0:38

I know. It was like our podcast was like super successful on Spotify even though we only had like hundreds of listens.

Krisserin 0:45

That's not true. We've had 15,000 downloads of our podcast l- in to-

Kelton 0:50

Hell yeah

Krisserin 0:51

lifetime, lifetime downloads, but yeah.

Kelton 0:54

edit that part out. Just say $15,000.

Krisserin 0:59

Believe me, when and if we ever contact sponsors, I'll be like, "We have 15,000 downloads." No, I wouldn't lie

Kelton 1:05

Oh, that's awesome

Krisserin 1:06

Well, Kelton, how was your week? I'm looking at our goals, and your goal for last week was to have as much fun as possible,

Kelton 1:20

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:21

plus write two newsletters, and to reread Funny You Should Ask. I know you wrote two newsletters, so tick,

Kelton 1:29

you...

Krisserin 1:29

I get them in my inbox.

Kelton 1:31

Tick, done. Yeah, I am back on the newsletter game. They are being sent out prior to us, hanging out today. I was working on the one for Sunday, so I'm back in the rhythm and, we- we'll see how the summer series goes 'cause it is a, is a different, it's a different thing than what I had been publishing the last five years. So we'll see if people stick through the summer. I did not reread Funny You Should Ask because, it wasn't stocked at my bookstore, so I ordered it through them am waiting for it to come in. It t- it takes, a long time for them to get books it seems like. But, I did wanna order it through them, so I'm waiting. And instead, I was reading two in the Dungeon Crawler Carl series. and I bought from Thrift Books, the first one to make Ben read it. So have a... time Ben and I read a whole series together it was Murder Bot, so I was

Krisserin 2:29

Oh,

Kelton 2:30

time."

Krisserin 2:31

nice

Kelton 2:32

follow-up to that. In terms of having as much fun as possible, um, I was sick.

Krisserin 2:39

I know. What the fuck?

Kelton 2:41

am sick, and then, as soon as Woods was better he started having some, new gastrointestinal problem, so we haven't slept last two nights. I did have lunch with some friends. I did have some friends visiting from Mexico City over for dinner.

Krisserin 2:57

Oh, nice

Kelton 2:58

had an interview. I mean, I enjoyed myself I guess. I tried to really embrace, enjoying what is good about toddlerdom and trying to actively erase the parts that are bad, especially because the parts that are bad almost always follow the good parts. So you have to be like, "Nope, nope, don't, don't ruin what was a beautiful morning by having a really bad afternoon." But, we went to the pool and we've gone to the playground and there's been a lot of merry-making, so I succeeded mostly. I s- succeeded in essence.

Krisserin 3:37

Take it. It's a win. We're up.

Kelton 3:40

Yeah, your goal was also to have fun, although I notice on my list mine says, "Have as much fun as possible," and yours just says, "Have fun." Plus one writing session. So tell me,

Krisserin 3:52

Yeah, no, I didn't do any, I didn't do any of that. Listen, it was the last week of school. I had this, big summer kickoff party at school that my company sponsored that I had to work, and it was just a very busy week. But

Kelton 4:09

Yeah

Krisserin 4:10

it's over now. School's out for summer, and after we record this podcast, I'm gonna go drop my girls off at their friend's house, and they're gonna spend the whole afternoon there.

Kelton 4:23

Oh.

Krisserin 4:24

not that I'm gonna get any writing done probably. But, and I didn't write. I didn't get any actual sessions of sitting down and writing done, but I had an epiphany

Kelton 4:36

Oh, I love epiphanies

Krisserin 4:38

I had an epiphany, and it has to do with my Gustafson novel. So for listener, I, we... The one thing that we're gonna do in season three is the breadcrumbing that authors do with their sequels and books, which is continually set context for the new listeners who don't know what the fuck we're talking about. But my, big, I like to call it my big novel, it's the book that is tackling the themes that make me wanna be a writer, which is ge- generational trauma and, and family dynamics and, talking about addiction and alcoholism. So that book is called The Incredible Gustafson Women, and the premise of it is that there is this family of women who believe that there's a curse that gets passed down to every woman in the family. And really, it's about the things that we believe and the stories that we tell ourselves and the legends that are perpetuated. And, I have a very famous ancestor, who I'm not directly related to, but we share a common ancestor, and I'll, I will tell you after the pod because, I mean, people could probably figure it out, but it's pretty badass. And so I, you know, a big part of the Gustafson novel is that these women, there are these stories of the women who came before them and how they had really tragic lives and died in really remarkable ways, and it colors the protagonist's idea about who she is and how successful she can be in life. And, so with that being said, I am doing research on this ancestor just to know her better and see what of how the idea of her has formed my life and how I can use some of that in the novel, and I think it might be a really good, like, organizing premise as I'm thinking about that book again. I will say this woman is better than I thought she was. I'm really excited, and I bought on ebooks a bunch of biographies of her, and so I'm gonna spend a lot of time reading those and digesting them and, and using them as inspiration for my book, The Incredible Gustafson Women. And on top of that, I'm excited. I'm really excited.

Kelton 6:53

I get the sweet tea after this episode is recorded and you'll have to wait until n- next season

Krisserin 6:59

Yeah. I don't wanna give it away 'cause it's, like, new and precious in my mind, but,

Kelton 7:03

Of course

Krisserin 7:05

the other thing I did was I actually was able to get a lot of my MFA program stuff set up, so I w- had a very productive weekend. I will say that. I got a ton of work done, ton of work done on this, side project that I'm working on. So I had a inspiring week, but not a necessarily, like, writing productive week, if that makes sense

Kelton 7:28

Yeah. Great. I mean, I love that

Krisserin 7:31

Yeah. It, and we're gonna... So this episode we are gonna spend a lot of time talking about the listener survey, because we got results and we're really excited to share them with you. But there was one particular, one particular respondent who, now is gonna like stick in my head. I swear to God, I'm gonna think about this person, so I just wanna say thank you to this person. One of our listeners is European, and, she said, quote, unquote, "These American women need to slow down and do less so that the creativity has more time to flow." She's not wrong

Kelton 8:04

listen, I, girl, I agree. I

Krisserin 8:07

Agree

Kelton 8:07

my bones. I have been running from my American roots the whole time I've been trapped in this country.

Krisserin 8:15

I know.

Kelton 8:15

It is hard to escape a culture this, addicted to capitalism

Krisserin 8:20

Yes. And also we, without a social safety net. Yeah

Kelton 8:25

Oh, totally. I was thinking about that the other day as my core client asked to expand my hours. And I, I... There wasn't a world where I d- I didn't just say yes,

Krisserin 8:35

Yeah

Kelton 8:36

I was worried that if I did not take the opportunity given to me, that I would somehow lose the opportunity I already had.

Krisserin 8:45

Yeah

Kelton 8:46

"I gotta live up to their expectations of me. We're gonna just churn and churn. Gotta make sure that I put enough retirement money that if I get cancer, I'm not bankrupt and destitute" You know, the American way of life.

Krisserin 9:00

Oh, it's so bad. It's so bad. But I will think about this all the time. Every time I'm exhausted and I'm doing too much, I'm gonna think of this listener. I need to slow down and do less. I need to be less of an American woman and embrace everything else.

Kelton 9:16

long, Krisserin and I are just gonna be texting each other, "Slow down. Do less."

Krisserin 9:21

less. Let the creativity flow. But you know what? It's so true because I, um, on the side project that I've been working on I felt so inspired and so creative, and I realize that when you do have a little bit of, like, brain power and bandwidth in your day, it, it just really opens up the opportunity to just let the ideas out. Oh, she's from the Czech Republic. We also have a listener from Norway, but this particular listener was from the Czech Republic, so I love it. An international audience. Who woulda thought?

Kelton 9:54

I'm so excited. And next, next season we can have some more international guests on.

Krisserin 9:59

Yeah, absolutely. Ooh, I love it.

Kelton 10:02

Ooh I read through our survey results last night and was just, so chuffed. Um, obviously there were a couple of, there were a couple of comments where I was like, "Okay. All right. Okay. I'm not for everyone."

Krisserin 10:19

Yeah, and you

Kelton 10:20

that

Krisserin 10:21

yeah, and to be fair, we have gotten emails from listeners who took umbrage with things that we've said, and I think it's important to hear that feedback and internalize it and think about it. I remember that I had said something about not wanting to read male authors, and someone got really upset about that. And there was one email that you got, 'cause you flippantly said something, I forget exactly what it was

Kelton 10:45

a, an aside about, when people unsubscribe from the newsletter.

Krisserin 10:50

That's right. That's right

Kelton 10:52

you know, and it was like I... It's, you take for granted that, like, when Krisserin and I talk to each other, do try to keep it like we are just best friends hanging out. And I think that if there are times for a really curated, really edited podcast, personal preference is to hear people being genuine and authentic and like friends. And so I, there are times when I'm like, I say something and I'm like, "Ah, I can see how someone would bristle at that." But I take for granted how well you, Krisserin, know me, and that you know the things that I'm saying because I'm jealous, or because I'm being silly, or because I'm just, riffing and having a good time with you. And I, I try to include the listeners in that relationship with us. And sometimes, you know, I mean, sometimes my friend says things where I'm like, I don't know about that."

Krisserin 11:46

Yeah

Kelton 11:47

and, and that's like we get those emails from our listeners, and I think it's really awesome when, when we do. And one, listener on the survey said that she had wanted to email us, and didn't, but then was able to express how she felt in the survey itself, which I thought was really cool. Even though it was like, "You guys were being bitches."

Krisserin 12:05

Yeah. And it's true. I think also that's like very much my, my Libra nature in that I don't mi- I have a lot of friends, they have a lot of different opinions, and, I kind of like let my friends be themselves, and will check them if they say shit that's way left. And, I think that's what friends do. And so the fact that we've had people write to us and fill out our survey and tell us honestly and candidly about how they felt just feels like we have friends that are listening that want us to succeed and do better, which is the best outcome. I love feedback. Even if my initial reaction to it is not, like

Kelton 12:43

Oh yeah, last night when I read some of these things, I just had a little pit in my stomach that I

Krisserin 12:48

Yeah

Kelton 12:49

"It's okay. You have felt the pit before. Just move through the pit." "It's fine

Krisserin 12:56

Well, without further ado, we'll get into a bit of the data, which is, so fun. Yeah, love some data. And I mean, the sample size of this survey is not super big, but also our listenership is, you know, it's, it's not, it's fledgling, right? Like, we're a pretty new podcast, and so the fact that we've got as many responses as we did, I think is pretty remarkable

Kelton 13:20

it was almost like a quarter of our listeners

Krisserin 13:22

I was really excited about that. And for those of you who didn't take the survey, we're gonna be collecting responses until the 21st. So if you listen to this and you still wanna put some data in, we will look at it. I'll pull the final results then. So these are just early results, and a lot of it was around how much did you listen and when did you discover us? So, um, amazing stat, 85% of our listeners have been listeners since season one, which I thought is amazing. 60% listen to every episode, and 35% listen to most. I think that is, an incredible retention rate for people wanting to tune in regularly. So if that's you, I love you. Thank you.

Kelton 14:10

I love you

Krisserin 14:12

We did ask people how they describe the show, and our listeners are writers I don't say that because we literally ask that, but the written responses are beautiful. When I read this, I was like, "Ooh, we have a writing podcast. Our listeners are writers." So someone wrote, "It's like sitting in the backseat of the car listening to your friends talk about their goals and books, but the windows are down and they can't hear you." I love that.

Kelton 14:44

I mean, absolutely accurate. That-

Krisserin 14:46

Poetic

Kelton 14:47

way to listen to podcasts is to keep pausing them and, like, interject in the conversation by myself in the car. I love this person

Krisserin 14:56

A lighthearted and realistic chat between two friends who hold each other accountable on their journeys to publish their first books while balancing motherhood, work, and the general dumpster fire that is the world

Kelton 15:07

Ah, isn't that the truth?

Krisserin 15:09

like I- we should just put that in the description of the podcast. Forget what we wrote, that's perfect. Writers in the trenches, cozy low-key chats about writing with people I can relate to and enjoy listening to, and then it says, relatable and pleasantly in the weeds conversation about writing while having to deal with life. So

Kelton 15:28

is really interesting about how people describe the show, is people are very in tune with it being about writing, but there are actually a fair amount of people who listen to this who are not writers

Krisserin 15:40

At all. Yeah

Kelton 15:42

Yeah. So it's, like, it's fascinating to me, uh, and I love that. So let's talk about who is listening the biggest group of you are 28% are writing your first draft. so you're right there at this point with us.

Krisserin 15:59

With us, yeah.

Kelton 16:00

I feel you.

Krisserin 16:01

Mm-hmm

Kelton 16:02

20% of you are revising. I'm in awe of you. I, I can't wait to be there. 15% dreaming about starting. Aren't we always? And, 10% are published, 5% are querying, and 15% are not writers. They just like the show

Krisserin 16:23

Amazing

Kelton 16:24

Yeah, so cool to me

Krisserin 16:26

Very cool. I think that's remarkable. And then in terms of what they're writing, 72% are writing literary fiction, 55% are writing memoir or essay, and 40% are writing romance and romantasy. So basically all the things we like to read.

Kelton 16:45

Yeah.

Krisserin 16:46

There's a smaller contingent that are writing, science fiction and fantasy, but that's the, the, the bulk of our listeners are, And people obviously, those numbers don't equal 100, so people got to select more than one. But I think that's great

Kelton 17:01

Yeah, can you imagine someone's like, "I'm writing my first draft. Also, I am not a writer."

Krisserin 17:06

Someone wrote, "Even though I'm not a writer, nor do I plan to be, I love hearing about what it takes to write a novel. I struggle with motivation to work on passion projects outside of my 9:00 to 5:00, and this podcast inspires me." And then someone else wrote just that, "Even as a non-writer, I'm a big fan. I take away something from every episode and definitely find a smile on my face more often than not."

Kelton 17:28

I do think there are equivalencies to just trying to create a project that is not your job. Uh, so, uh, 'cause we all just l- get into that swirl of like, well, the work is the gas. It just filled the space, and I didn't, I didn't knit, I didn't run, I didn't paint, I didn't, uh, build a robot, you know?

Krisserin 17:55

Yeah.

Kelton 17:55

what are other hobbies that I don't have?

Krisserin 17:57

Oh, man. So we, we would be remiss if we would not thank Olivia Muenter.

Kelton 18:05

big shout-out to Olivia Muenter

Krisserin 18:08

I wanna send her a basket because 42% of our listeners found us through the Bad On Paper podcast. So tha-

Kelton 18:15

remarkable. You guys have a, deep stamina for writing podcasts.

Krisserin 18:22

Yeah. Yeah. That's really remarkable. So shout out to Olivia, our, our friend, and, I'm definitely gonna need to send her something in the mail to say thank you. And then, you know, 30% found us through Kelton's blog. Substack.

Kelton 18:41

Yeah, watch it. Watch your mouth.

Krisserin 18:44

No one here is from me. I don't know.

Kelton 18:47

what we will get to that later in the survey because people do want to find

Krisserin 18:53

Ah,

Kelton 18:54

through you.

Krisserin 18:54

I know

Kelton 18:55

that in a little bit, but I do wanna shout out, the Shangri-Loggers, for joining me on this podcast journey, and, like, a very special shout-out to anyone who has been listening since, or been following since Date by Numbers.

Krisserin 19:08

Yeah.

Kelton 19:08

you've put a lot of faith in my work, and it is why I am still writing and creating things. So your presence is felt, appreciated, and weighs heavy on the back of my mind as I'm like, "I owe them a book."

Krisserin 19:23

It's coming. I'm not worried about that at all. Yeah. That being said, 52% have shared the show, 30% want to share the show and haven't, and that's mostly because you guys don't have a network of people or, like, writer-ing friends that you would share it with, which makes sense. You know, people said, "It's a bit niche for my IRL friends. I'm not a writer and neither are my friends, so I just haven't been sure it's something they'd be interested in." So I think it's interesting because there is a contingent of people who aren't writers who listen to the podcast, so maybe in season three we'll think about, hmm,

Kelton 19:59

Yeah, how do we frame it where it's like, maybe you'd like these two gals yapping about their goals. Their goals are mainly framed through writing, but it's a realistic look at what it takes to pursue your passions when you have to do all these other things

Krisserin 20:15

Come for the inspiration, stay for the bitching about our husbands and our children

Kelton 20:22

Love you guys

Krisserin 20:23

Ah, so funny. Cool. Well, let's see. Season two was the first, the first season of two seasons where we had guests on the podcast, The beginning of the season, I think we were just, like, slotting people in when it worked for their schedule, and then as the season progressed, which by the way, season one was only from, January to May or whatever it was. Season two was very long. We flew past the 50 episode milestone with, like, no fanfare. I was gonna, get balloons, and then after we filmed it, I was like, "Shit, I forgot." Can't remember one more thing. So at the end of the season, we tried to have a guest on every other episode in- instead of, like, back to back to back, 'cause I felt like it gave us time to, you know... When we have guests on, we don't have a ton of time to talk about our goals and what's going on in our lives, et cetera. So I thought having them every other one would give the listeners one episode of just us, where we'd kind of deep dive into things, and then, the next one would be with a guest. So that being said, we asked, which episode format do you prefer? Do you prefer a host only? Do you prefer guests? Or do you love both? And so 25% of you just wanna listen to us, which is nice. Thank you for that. And then 72% said that they love both the host only and guest episodes equally. Only one single person said they prefer the guest interviews, so I thought that was really interesting

Kelton 21:54

That is interesting. I mean, I really love the episodes when it's just us. I love the guest episodes, but they are, they're more work. And that's a, it's time out of the week to be reading their books and researching them and thinking about the narrative arc of the episode and planning the questions and, you know, that, uh, that takes time. And so it's nice... I really enjoy the mornings when I just... For me, it's like getting on the phone with you, you know, where you're just, shooting the shit.

Krisserin 22:22

Yeah

Kelton 22:22

amazing that we can accountabilibuddies in that way, that, like, it, you can... It's easy to do for, like, a full hour.

Krisserin 22:30

Yeah

Kelton 22:31

listen, I would have our episodes be three hours. I love a long podcast. I'm like, two hours is my sweet spot. I, I'm happy with the cadence that we've hit with this. I think every other episode is nice, but I don't feel like we need to be, it needs to be doctrine. I think, in season three, I'm excited to, you know, have it be organic and know that we can pepper in a lot of episodes with just us, and that it will still resonate with the listeners

Krisserin 23:03

Yeah, I think one thing as we think about the format of our guest episodes for next season is that when we get into the weeds, like when we've read the book and it, when I say that, I mean when Kelton has read the book, 'cause she is the one who typically reads the books for our episodes. Sometimes it's a little too inside baseball for the listeners because they haven't read the book. And so when we're talking about character and backstory about something that people haven't read, it can be alienating for some of the listeners. But the things that, you know, we talked about it, last week. I think Amanda Boyle wrote in and she said, "The thing that I like about the guest episodes is that it's clear how no one writer's path to publication is the same." And so I think that that is a great area of focus when we too talk to our, guests. And next season, I think also thinking outside of just debut authors, which I feel like is a great place to start, but booksellers and publicists and other people who work not as writers, but in the industry would be really interesting to have on. But I think focusing on, what is that path? How did you make it work? How did you navigate it and get to the other side? And, like, what are your struggles now in the stage that you're in is a great, again, unifying theme for those conversations.

Kelton 24:21

Amazing

Krisserin 24:22

Also, it means that you don't have to power read through every guest's book. But, that being said, look what came in the mail

Kelton 24:30

I got mine as well. You know what's funny? Um, Krisserin is holding up a copy of Courtney Maum's Alan Ops Out, which

Krisserin 24:37

I'm holding a signed copy of Courtney Momma Allen's Opt Out

Kelton 24:42

pre-ordered this book twice. I didn't remember doing it the first time. So when I got the second copy in the mail, I was... I had gone to the post office, picked up the mail, opened it in the car and was on my way to town, and I just drove straight to the library and was

Krisserin 24:57

Yeah.

Kelton 24:57

guys want this?"

Krisserin 24:58

I was gonna say, you should take it to the library. That's amazing

Kelton 25:01

"Uh, yeah. Yeah, we do."

Krisserin 25:03

Nice

Kelton 25:04

there is a signed copy of Alan Ops Out at the Telluride Li- Library.

Krisserin 25:10

That's amazing. Shout out to Courtney Mom. Okay, well, what they want in season three, We gave a bunch of different options and people could select as many as they want, and they did. It's very, um, it's People want a lot of things. And,

Kelton 25:25

we should start from the bottom of this one,

Krisserin 25:27

ooh, okay. So

Kelton 25:29

kind of agree

Krisserin 25:31

But here's the thing about this category: these are the episodes and the clips on social that perform the best.

Kelton 25:38

Oh, interesting. So tell them, tell them, tell them

Krisserin 25:41

Yep, so in dead last was AI and the Future of Writing.

Kelton 25:46

You guys don't wanna hear about it.

Krisserin 25:48

I don't wanna talk about it, to be honest with you.

Kelton 25:50

it. I don't wanna talk about it.

Krisserin 25:53

But I was, you know, I was perusing our YouTube channel, and our videos get, like, very I mean, it's, like, my mom and a couple other people that probably watch our YouTube videos. And With the one exception of the, the wedgie video that we know when got a lot of viewership on YouTube 'cause people are perverts, the AI-- one of the episodes where we talked about AI had the most views. And I think it's, it's kind of a sticky relevant, topic, but our listeners don't wanna hear about it. And great, because we don't wanna talk about it, so we're aligned.

Kelton 26:26

Bye.

Krisserin 26:27

Bye. Say goodbye to the devil. Short fiction and lit journals, I'm gonna go from the bottom up, were 22%, platform building 30%, indie and small press, then marketing and promotion. Now we graduate to the 40 percents, finding your voice, book deals and contracts, the submission process, residencies, retreats, and conferences, writing through motherhood. Writing through motherhood was 48%. Leaping into the

Kelton 26:54

for a second.

Krisserin 26:55

Sure

Kelton 26:57

on, on the things you've listed, things I find kind of interesting, only 45% of you wanna hear about book deals and contracts. Which to me, and maybe I should separate these a little in my mind, but that is a little about, the author's origin story. You know, our guests, telling how it works. And I, I wonder if some of that is just because it's further along in the journey than what most of our readers said they are doing. I am a, you know, a typical, Virgo Capricorn that I wanna, plot the path, and so I'm like, I wanna know what to prepare for four steps ahead so that, like, when I get there, I'm well-versed in it. so I was surprised to see submission process, book deals, and contracts so low. I understand marketing and promotion, indie and small press platform building. I get it. It's kinda, niche or, relevant to a lot of people. those two I was surprised by.

Krisserin 27:54

Mm-hmm. Yeah

Kelton 27:56

the things that made the bottom of the list? Was there anything that didn't rank at all?

Krisserin 28:01

I don't think so

Kelton 28:02

to, did they have to rank them all?

Krisserin 28:05

No, I don't think so. I guess when I'm looking through these topics, we don't have querying on here. Maybe that was a mistake on our end that we didn't include that, like finding an agent

Kelton 28:18

it's also half of you do wanna hear about it

Krisserin 28:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true, that's true. But no, o- outside of that, I think, no surprises. When we go up, what's interesting is I feel like these, the top echelon of these categories are the things that we talk about a lot, so that's good. 50% wanna hear about money and financial realities, which is great 'cause Kelton and I like to talk about money.

Kelton 28:41

Yeah

Krisserin 28:42

Love talking about money. So it goes from 50 to 60%, story structure and world-building, which I think was pretty cool.

Kelton 28:51

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 28:52

62% listener letters, reading and responding on air. We love those too, so please email us.

Kelton 28:58

Yeah. In order to do a listener letter segment, you guys need to send letters.

Krisserin 29:03

Yeah.

Kelton 29:04

And shout out to everyone who has. But like, know, even if there's something that you're like, "I think it'd be interesting to hear you riff on this,"

Krisserin 29:12

Yeah

Kelton 29:12

it doesn't have to be a question specific to your project. Just be like, "I haven't heard you guys talk about this," or, "I saw this on another podcaster show and thought maybe you could react to it." Anything like that, we would love to have this be a segment in season three that we reliably do. So if you are into that, help us make it happen

Krisserin 29:31

Yeah, and then we can make the episodes longer. Per Kelton's, per Kelton's request. I think, you know, the other thing is I was going through our inbox yesterday. I'm an inbox zero girly, and I did miss a couple of things that people forwarded to us, and so I responded to those. So, you know, we've had people DM us book recommendations, guest rec- We love a guest recommendation because, you know, we want to build a community, and if you are listening to the podcast and you have a friend who's got a project and, like, you think would be a good guest, please do send them to us. We love that. We had two guests on this season that came from listener recommendations. We've had a couple people DM us and, and tell us, like, "Read this." I had, I just saw an inbox from someone who, or an email from someone who forwarded us a newsletter that they thought we would like and we should check out, so love that. So keep writing in. Revision and editing deep dives, we will be there beginning of season three after we finish, we finish our goal

Kelton 30:31

of you wanna hear more about revision and editing deep dives. Me too

Krisserin 30:39

And then the number one, ba-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, the number one, topic that you guys wanna hear are, is just hearing us talk about writer mental health, burnout, slumps, and comparison spirals. Happy to oblige.

Kelton 30:55

Oh, yeah. And you know what was interesting to me is that, once we-- Some of these top ones, writing through motherhood, money and financial realities, and writer mental health just, going through the motions, talking about the things we're struggling with. I am currently struggling with getting over this cold. and I'm, like, having a really hard time breathing.

Krisserin 31:15

Oh my God, do you need a tissue?

Kelton 31:17

I-- It's like, you know, when you get to the end of the cold, and it's all just, like, trapped between your nose and your throat?

Krisserin 31:23

Ugh. Yeah

Kelton 31:23

disgusting, and, there's nothing I can do about it other than, saline spray myself into oblivion. But I liked seeing that all these topics were so high because that-- those are the reasons, I like coming here. You know, I don't need as much from an accountability buddy talk about plot or structure. I need to be like, "Life is getting in the way, and I'm having a hard time staying motivated. I'm having a hard time staying on track. I'm having a hard time being loyal to my long-term goals." And so knowing that those topics are of interest from our audience is just like-- it's delightful. It feels like we are aligned on what you and I wanted out of this podcast and what we are delivering.

Krisserin 32:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I would agree with that. Okay, moving on to... Well, I, I do, I think you're right though, just to like go back to the format. I think for season three it would be really nice to have a regular listener letter segment of the episode. That is a pretty clear signal that you guys like it, and we like it too, and

Kelton 32:27

even these listener topic suggestions are essentially emails. So I'll read you guys some listener topic suggestions that came in through the survey. One was inspiration and slash taking a nugget of an idea and turning it into a world with a plot. Where do you start? How do you do that? The next one was how to find good alpha and beta readers and how to disengage from not good ones. I, all, both of those are great examples of, like, a one-liner email that could be, like, listener email, and we could do a whole segment on those sorts of things. Those were great topics and suggestions, too. Thank you.

Krisserin 33:05

Can I just say I've had a couple alpha and beta readers that... It's, it's a real, it's a real thing, having to disengage from feedback that is not constructive and not helpful, but we'll save that for season three. Okay, guests that our listeners want.

Kelton 33:23

Least interesting to the audience was publicists. There were 18% of you who would like to hear from this, and I think we probably will. I think this is, me, this is kind of in the bookseller category where it's like I don't really know what's happening. I have an idea, but it would be nice to actually hear someone talk about it.

Krisserin 33:42

Yeah

Kelton 33:43

you do get there, you're like, "Oh,

Krisserin 33:45

Yeah. I think and a, a thing about the publicist also is that, you know, we had Heather Hansman on the episode last week, and she talked about how her publisher, you know, h- she has a publicist for her book that comes with the publisher, but she's doing a lot of the work on, on her own. But the reality is that there are book publicists that exist that you can hire yourself. That is a whole thing that people do.

Kelton 34:10

Just above publicists at 25% of you being interested were freelance editors, and right above that, writing teachers. which is interesting because we're also really excited to talk about editing and revisions. So these people could be really valuable

Krisserin 34:33

Yeah

Kelton 34:34

given the fact that, like, I... Listen, I can tell you what I do to edit, but I, I don't really have a... a novice, you know? I'm barely to the point of editing. So, I thought that was interesting. 32% would love to hear from indie press founders. I think that could be a cool category. then above that at 45%, best-selling established authors. Also at 45% was writer parents, which, you know, we've heard people are interested in h- hearing us talk through, like, the challenges of writing with motherhood. And I, I think it comes through in any episode where a guest has caregiving responsibilities, that those caregiving responsibilities, whether they are for, um, children, uh, elders, or you're in a sandwich position, it's interesting to hear how people grapple through that. Um, one thing I have been thinking about for our future season, future guests, is having a little questionnaire early for the guests to be like, "Can we get into some of the limitations in your life?" Um, I- it's hard when you don't know someone to ask, like, "Are you caretaking anybody?

Krisserin 35:51

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 35:52

strain?" You know? But it's like some of that is, if you know it's fair game, it's really interesting to talk about. So, I would like to find a really tactful way to have that be a pre-questionnaire for future guests so that we can get into the nitty-gritty. 'Cause sometimes you just, you don't know. You know, it's sort of like when we were talking to Rachel Hochhauser, like from the top line, her story is like a very fairy tale until you get into the realities that this idea came to her while she was in the hospital and her husband's life was in question, and she had a young child. Um, and it just... Once you know the limitations someone's working against, you have a better understanding and can kind of, even in those comparison spirals, feel some more commiseration and respect than just, like, "Oh, how wonderful for you." And then above that, surprise hit, 48% of you wanna hear from book sellers and bookstore owners. Me too. Me too. And then Krisserin, you wanna talk about the juggernauts all above 50%?

Krisserin 37:05

This is great because it's exactly who we talked to this season, but 52% would love to hear from literary agents. So we'll have to source some more literary agents for next season. Shout out to Lauren Khan for being our first and only 55% authors who took non-traditional paths. Shout out to Rachel Maddox for being our first and only self-published author on the podcast. And then last but not least, 78% are interested in hearing from debut authors. So that's great. We love, we l-

Kelton 37:42

the thing is, I also wanna hear from authors who took non-traditional paths, but it is often hard to know that they did until you interviewed

Krisserin 37:50

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 37:51

Um, and

Krisserin 37:52

True

Kelton 37:52

this is another area where if you know someone who's an author who did this, drop them in our inbox. We would love to hear about them. We're just as interested in these general people as you are. So if you know someone we don't, throw us a bone. Be that good literary citizen and we'll see if we can get 'em on. There were some dream names dropped. A few of these I, I think are top tier for me. Lauren Groff, Mary Roach, Emily Henry, Kate Kennedy, Becca Freeman, who I think we could get. Sh- looking at you, Olivia. Amanda Loveless, and Erica Berry. And so I think that's like a fun place to start. I love the idea of me emailing Mary Roach. she's one, she is one of my favorite writers. Be like, "Hey, Mary. How's your, your press time lately?

Krisserin 38:39

Ja

Kelton 38:40

go on a really small pod?" She might. She's cool

Krisserin 38:44

Do you have any people that are on your wish list of people that you would want to interview? Let's put it out in the universe

Kelton 38:53

Uh, l- no. I wasn't prepared to answer this. I'm sure there's people I would love to interview, but off the top of my head, oh, I, they're not in there krisserin, do you have any dream names?

Krisserin 39:07

I've had Young Me Mayer on my list of guests that I wanna have on the podcast for a long time. I think, you know, I've just... And I've been meaning to, email her agent and publicist and ask if she'd be interested to come on. I think her memoir is one of the most beautifully written things I've read in a really long time, she's also exactly our age. She was born the same year as us, and actually as me, 'cause you're a year younger than me, right?

Kelton 39:36

Yeah

Krisserin 39:37

and I think that her path to writing is a really inspiring one. I think it's hard because there are some authors that I think are remarkable whom I love, and then when I read their story of how they got published, I'm like, "Actually, that's not, It's not, like, something that's relatable or helpful for people to hear about," and that is the struggle, is that episodes that do the best and the guests that are the, are I think the most successful are the ones that figured out a way to make it happen for themselves. And sometimes, you know, it's hard to know, like you said, who that's going to be. I mean, I, I'm thinking of one author specifically that I'll tell you afterwards when I... And I think she's remarkable, and then when I read her path to publication, I was like, "Oh, your parents work in publishing, and you're went to, like, the best MFA program in the country and published something when you were, graduating from that program," which is great. I just, like, that ca- like, that is not replicable. So yeah, I think, one thing that I am hoping we could figure out over the summer is, you know, we got really lucky with Rachel Hochhauser. Literally, her publicist emailed us and was like, "Do you wanna have her on the pod?" And we were like, "Yeah, absolutely. That would be great." But that doesn't happen that often. We do get some inbounds, but a lot of times they're, I think guests that aren't, like, a great fit for our listeners. So it's like how can we identify or figure out debut authors that, whose books are going to be published around the time that the episodes are coming out so we can get them on the podcast and help, you know, get their book out there and hear about how they did it? I think it would be really nice if we could figure out a system to do that.

Kelton 41:20

now that you're saying that, it's like we could reach out to people like Heather Hansman and be like, "Hey, what's your publicist's email?"

Krisserin 41:27

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 41:27

Um, 'cause just knowing the publicists at these places to be like, "We have a writing podcast, and it does pretty good, and we'd love to have debut authors on there," as like our little niche.

Krisserin 41:39

Yeah

Kelton 41:40

you know, 'cause that's who they're, like, "Who do I, where do I place this? How do I do that?" The big names, it's way easier. So, like, I think it could be throwing them a bone.

Krisserin 41:49

Yeah

Kelton 41:49

Going back quickly to, my own dream names, something I didn't do this past season was really think about my own network. There's no reason I can't reach out to Ann Friedman, Ann Helen Peterson, Erica Chidi, Holly Whitaker, Laura McCowan. A lot of these people have very successful art editorial writing careers, and be like, "Do you wanna talk about it for an hour?" So I do have a roster that I have not fully tapped into yet. And I do think, th- they are part of my existing community and, there's part of me who wants to bring more people in,

Krisserin 42:24

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 42:25

also part of me that wants to, strengthen the bonds that exist so that we can lift the community we already have too. So gotta strike a balance there. But there are a lot of smart people that I have not dug into their past and how they got to where they are.

Krisserin 42:40

I like this idea of having friends of the pod and people that we can become friends with. We had so many authors on this season that I didn't know until we interviewed them. I mean, and outside of even the ones that you knew and brought on the episodes, people who reached out to us, people that we got introduced to, and now it's like we have this kind of group of, you know, people that are in our network now, which is incredible, and I would love to be able to continue to build community, continue to like, you know, highlight debut authors that are just starting out and need to build that readership themselves. So yeah, reach out

Kelton 43:17

actually had some, like, great questions, too, where you were like, "I wish you asked this of authors." One is just what they're reading. So we do this a little bit, but we keep it more broad than that.

Krisserin 43:29

Yeah

Kelton 43:29

do think, three books on your nightstand right now is a good way to push this. Making an author interview book club, which we will talk about in a little bit. Hearing about the moments that people almost gave up. The tangible hands-on bits about how writers come back to their desk again and again, like Heather Hansman's, fake commute. And then my personal favorite, and that... This comes back to that, pre, interview questionnaire I like to write, asking them how they actually pay their bills. I... Listen, I wanna ask,

Krisserin 44:02

Ajaa

Kelton 44:03

feel like in this industry, it is so helpful to know when someone is like, "Well, I actually live in the house that my parents gave me, so I've never had rent or a mortgage," or, "My partner has always been the breadwinner and has allowed me to, make a salary of, 20,000 a year."

Krisserin 44:23

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 44:23

know, like, those elements, I think, it, it, it just really help paint the picture more fully. And I know that a lot of people consider this but I feel like it, it, it... How do I wanna say this? The taboo is there to limit how we help each other. It is to keep people down, to keep things secret, is to gatekeep, and being as open as a person can be without, compromising their privacy or what their partner's wish is, whatever they are. I think it would be really cool to ask. So I'm gonna try to find a way in the next season to do that

Krisserin 45:03

Kelton, how do you pay your bills?

Kelton 45:06

I have clients. Shangrilogs, um, so on Substack the conversion rate is usually for however many subscribers they h- have overall, it's about 6% become paid. And I think mine is down to, 4.5, 5%. So I make $20,000 a year from Substack,

Krisserin 45:24

Incredible.

Kelton 45:25

awesome. It's

Krisserin 45:26

Yeah

Kelton 45:27

It took four years to get to that point, and now it's like a scramble to keep it at that point. Taking one month off, I lost 20 paid subscribers. and so that, that adds up pretty quickly, and so you have to really, you have to work for that audience. And then I've always been in freelance since 2018 is when I started freelancing, sometimes on the side of my job, sometimes full time. And I do brand work. I do ghostwriting. I'm a fractional creative director. I, have an onboarding meeting today with a new client, in the outdoor industry, and so I'm constantly hustling to find new people to work with on... They're usually all temp contracts, so how we pay the bills. I am the breadwinner in the house by a long shot, and, that means that my partner, covers a lot of the emotional mental load. He's doing the cooking and the shopping and managing things like laundry and the cars. So that's how we balance it, and that is how we pay bills

Krisserin 46:33

Thanks for sharing

Kelton 46:34

Yeah, I cannot wait for a book to do it, but like in the back of my mind, you know, a book is never gonna... I can't imagine a world where I get an advance that is equal to how much I make a year

Krisserin 46:47

Well, not with that attitude.

Kelton 46:49

Well, you know, it's like I, I, I do think it helps to be realistic

Krisserin 46:55

Yeah. No, it's true

Kelton 46:57

thing you wanna do is gonna be like, "Oh, I'm gonna get $100,000 advance," you know? And then you get one for 30,000 and you've just set yourself up for disappointment, even though getting an advance at all is really cool. And there are, there are plus sides to having a smaller advance. It's easier to earn out, which keeps you within the publisher's good graces. You know, there's things like that.

Krisserin 47:19

Yeah.

Kelton 47:20

I agree, like, it's nice to have an abundance mindset. There's... I'm always gonna have the fairy tale track playing in the back of my mind where, you know, you get the major deal. But I also know that thus far I have not worked on a project that would warrant that. I think sometimes when you get that, like, Carol Claire Burke idea, like yesteryear, you're like, "Oh, I have something.

Krisserin 47:42

Yeah.

Kelton 47:43

it,"

Krisserin 47:43

Yeah

Kelton 47:44

But I know that my ideas are not that. Um, I like them, I love them, I can't wait for them to be books, but I'm not writing an adaptation of Cinderella from the stepmother's point of view either. Like, I don't, I don't have a high concept idea.

Krisserin 47:57

Well, even Rachel Haukozer talked about how that seven-figure deal gets paid out and how it's gonna take a really long time and a lot of taxes get pulled out of it. So even when it is significant, you know,

Kelton 48:10

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 48:10

lot of strings attached that make it, you know,

Kelton 48:13

Yeah, I,

Krisserin 48:14

tale as you think it's gonna be

Kelton 48:16

not handing you a check for a million dollars. They're s- they're creating you, like, a salary contract

Krisserin 48:22

Yeah, pretty much

Kelton 48:23

hers was also for two books

Krisserin 48:25

Two books. Yeah

Kelton 48:26

course of, like, six or something,

Krisserin 48:31

Yeah

Kelton 48:31

like, I don't know, $150,000 a year before

Krisserin 48:36

Taxes.

Kelton 48:37

publicist,

Krisserin 48:38

Yep. Yeah

Kelton 48:39

Um, and so, you know, at the end of the day, she could be, like, making $90,000 a year for six years,

Krisserin 48:45

Right

Kelton 48:46

you know, whe- when you look at it that way, you're kinda like, "Okay. Man,

Krisserin 48:51

Yeah.

Kelton 48:52

I should be a plumber"

Krisserin 48:54

HVAC.

Kelton 48:56

Um,

Krisserin 48:57

man

Kelton 48:57

that's, it just all circles back to like why, like asking that question, like how do you pay your bills, is really interesting

Krisserin 49:03

Yeah, it's true. And for, and for transparency, uh, how I pay my bills is that I am the vice president of direct consumer marketing for a, uh, CPG brand. That is h- my day job. And then, you know, my husband has a very big job at a tech company. He's in New York right now at a huge conference that he helped organize and is leading. And then I have live-in childcare, and I think that is, like, the biggest boon in terms of how we can be successful in our household, is I have my husband's parents living with us and helping caretake my two kids. And I think that that is a huge advantage that I have. But yeah

Kelton 49:42

Yeah. As I, as I sigh in the background.

Krisserin 49:45

I know, I know.

Kelton 49:47

I was

Krisserin 49:47

it's

Kelton 49:48

live-in childcare if you count the dog just knocking him down every once in a while

Krisserin 49:53

The cats are keeping an eye on him too, I'm sure, but oh, man. Okay, moving on. So 80% of you love our goal-setting segments and, one even said that sh- they find themselves setting weekly goals with us and to force, themselves to check in when they listen to us do it, which is great. This is where it gets interesting. 45% of you have an accountability partner. That's higher than I thought it was gonna be. That's in- that's remarkable. That's great. 22% of you do not, but they, but you want one. 20% said, "Does this podcast count?" And only 12% said that you prefer to go it on, on your own, prefer to go solo

Kelton 50:41

I mean, good on ya

Krisserin 50:43

community features that people are interested in. 40% are interested in a, a book club, which I think we could do as, like, bonus episodes, which would mean I'd actually have to read the books that we, we pick

Kelton 50:57

I mean, I do girl, catch up.

Krisserin 50:59

I know

Kelton 50:59

kind of interested in this. Uh, a lot of me is, is not. Um, I, I like occasionally being in a book club. I don't know if I'm the girl to host one. You know? I don't know if I have anything beyond "I liked it." I think, there was one person who commented earlier that, they didn't like the way we disparaged Yesteryear.

Krisserin 51:31

We have to talk about, we have to talk about that

Kelton 51:34

to their, to their credit, so I had thought about that episode afterwards because like, I, you know, I agree in a lot of ways. I was like, "I haven't read the book." And I didn't do a great job of just centering the feedback I had read about the book, which was, had been my intention. Because I do really like to read reviews and read think pieces about books even if I haven't read them. I think it's interesting. And I think those elements are interesting because I don't do them. I finish a book and I write two lines about it in my notes so that I remember the book, and that, I write like something I really loved and, if there's elements I didn't like, I'll be like, "I really struggled with this throughout the book." And that's kind of it. And so when I think about doing a book club, I don't know that I it in me to do it especially in a really like respectful, thoughtful way. The person who wrote into us about our delinquency and rudeness on Yesteryear, you know, they were, were, right. Like we hadn't read the book, and

Krisserin 52:32

read a, I'd read some of it and I didn't finish it. Yeah.

Kelton 52:35

some of it and didn't like it, which I think is more valid. And I think it is really hard to talk about books you don't like

Krisserin 52:41

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 52:43

a, in some ways disparaging the writing.

Krisserin 52:48

Mm-hmm

Kelton 52:48

Usually the books I don't like, it is because I don't like writing

Krisserin 52:54

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 52:55

all of that to say, book club. I don't know, girl

Krisserin 52:59

Okay, well I think there's a way that we could do book club. It would be a lot of work for us, and I'll talk about that in a second. But I just wanna address the Yesteryear feedback because I thought about it a lot, and I, you know, I am chronically online. And so I do consume a lot of content about books and people reviewing books. And I think that there are some people that do a really good job of crafting very thoughtful responses to why a book worked for them or didn't, and there was actually one... And I'll link it in the show notes. There was one critique of Yesteryear that I completely agreed with, and I even commented on it. I was like, "This is, the eloquently well-researched reason why I didn't like the book, and I'm really glad that you pointed it out." And, you know, for me, it was the writing that I took an issue with, and a lot of it was because of the way that the author used scripture from the Bible in a way that felt like a easy fix to give the main character some semblance of, an understanding of her relationship with her religion, and then in the book she specifically says, the author, Carol Claire Burke, specifically says that she didn't want the specific religion that the main character ascribed to to be, like, it- she wanted it to be vague. And so for me, I thought that the way she used sc- I, like, I took issue with it. I'm not even a religious person. I'm an atheist. My mom hates that 'cause she's very Christian. But, you know, other people who are more religious than me were, were fine with it. For me, it felt a little bit like, I don't wanna use the word sloppy 'cause that's, again, using terms that are, that have judgment in them, but I didn't like how that was executed, and it, it, like, made me not like the writing more. And so I think, I think that this piece of feedback that we got from our listener is completely correct, and even afterwards, after we recorded the episode, in my mind I w- I was thinking to myself, like, "I shouldn't have talked about that book that way." I, I thought about it and I even saw a video on TikTok yesterday where someone was talking about how bad the writing was in this, like, most recent author's book that they published, and I thought to myself, "God, I-" If that was me, I would be so heartbroken, you know? So I think that it's a little bit easier to lob criticism at Caro- Claire Burke because her book is so wildly successful. Uh, Anne Hathaway helped write the book to make it more mainstream to, to make it into a film. Like, the, the thing is that, like, this book was set up in a way that you and I would never be able to achieve, you know? So that's why I think that it's a little bit more fair game than I think any other writer that we would have on the podcast. We would never, I think, approach it with the same amount of criticism. But either way, I think that it's important for me to acknowledge that my critique of the book, even though I didn't finish it, is my opinion, and I can be, I think, a little bit more generous in how I approach my criticism of books and be careful with the words that I choose. And this goes back to th- what Kelton and I said at the beginning of the podcast where it's two friends going back and forth and bitching about things. And so I would absolutely not have changed how I talked about that book if it were just me and Kelton on the phone. But i- in front of a microphone on a podcast, I can be more thoughtful about how I craft my criticism of books. So

Kelton 56:22

And I do think there is something to, like, um, we also talked earlier about being American, that when you see the safety net forming underneath someone, you're like, "It's okay to f- lob a few criticisms that way."

Krisserin 56:36

Yeah

Kelton 56:36

Now that they got a movie deal, now that they're besties with Anne Hathaway, you know what? I didn't like it.

Krisserin 56:41

Yeah. Also, there's

Kelton 56:42

I'm

Krisserin 56:43

so many critical reviews of this book. It's very controversial. Some people love it, some people fucking hate it. So

Kelton 56:48

Yeah,

Krisserin 56:49

yeah.

Kelton 56:50

will read it. So,

Krisserin 56:52

You should.

Kelton 56:53

You know, it's gon- she's gonna get the readership anyways. But I do wanna talk about, um,

Krisserin 56:58

on.

Kelton 56:58

I was...

Krisserin 56:59

book club. Here's how I think we would have to do it, really quickly. I think that we, in order for us to do a book club, I don't think it's a read-along. I think it's you and I, whether we get books from debut authors sent to us or whatever, we read books, and if we love them, we create a curated book club that people can participate in. And it's not something that, like, we would, And maybe we, like, form the questions around, like, how, like, a, like, do a write-up of, like, what we thought about it and the things that we liked about it and have questions for people to participate. But it's not one that we would, like, you know, host. It's one that we would have that exists. It's, like, the pen pals book club, and, you would know that we are including it in our book club, kind of like our Reese's book club, we like it and we recommend it. I think that's how we would have to do it

Kelton 57:43

Well, speaking of gathering the troops, the other highest thing that people were interested in was a writing accountability group. And this is something I have kind of thought about for our pen pals community, that we could host something through, you know, Slack or Discord or something like that, to just have an accountability group. And it was cool to see that 38% of you were really interested in that. So I hope for season three that we can figure out a way to create that, to create group and maybe that group does the accountability thing and it's where we host the book club. You know, we'll have to talk about like technical stuff this, this summer. But, I was really excited to see the things that ranked top of community feature interest

Krisserin 58:27

I really want a Slack group, and I know that that is probably controversial and people will be like, "Fuck that." But I just feel like I love Slack

Kelton 58:35

I love Slack. I love Slack. I love Slacking. Like

Krisserin 58:38

It's really nice and kind of,

Kelton 58:40

do that.

Krisserin 58:42

and I know how to administer it. I know...

Kelton 58:45

how to run Slack.

Krisserin 58:47

Same. That's what I was thinking.

Kelton 58:49

Teams, okay?

Krisserin 58:51

We're too old to be on Discord, okay?

Kelton 58:53

Yeah.

Krisserin 58:54

I don't know how that's gonna work

Kelton 58:56

had a hard time using it the one time I was in it.

Krisserin 58:59

Yeah.

Kelton 58:59

I was like, "Yeah, I'm old."

Krisserin 59:01

and then as an aside, I think it would be nice to, like, invite our guests into the Slack group and they can have their own little thing. And I, uh, you know, for people who are listening that have things that they've written and they want the pen pals community to know about it, they can post and say like, "Hey guys," like, "I published this thing," or, "I'm going to this event in my town." And I just think it would be nice. I think it would be nice

Kelton 59:25

Yeah

Krisserin 59:26

What else? What else do the people want? In-person writing retreat, 32%. I'll take it

Kelton 59:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 59:34

Well, it's 32% of the people who responded to the podcast.

Kelton 59:38

Not enough.

Krisserin 59:41

All right, well, you know, I think again that it's w- I have ideas for this as well, but I think that it'll have to be something that comes when we have a larger audience, but

Kelton 59:51

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 59:52

put a pin in that for now. Weekly writing prompts came in at 30%, classes or workshops came in at 25%, 22% wanted a newsletter/Substack, 15% were interested in merch or bookish goods, 15% in the Discord, 15% in bonus episodes, 12% in live Q- a live Q&A, and nobody wanted a paid subscriber feed, which is great 'cause I don't wanna moderate it

Kelton 1:00:18

Yeah, I don't wanna do that. Also lol at the 12% want a live Q&A because one of the feedback, someone did say, "I think you guys need to have event session before you start recording so that it can get into the more inspiring bits." First of all, we often do.

Krisserin 1:00:34

Yeah.

Kelton 1:00:37

You are not getting the most unedited versions of us. There is like five minutes pre where we're both just like...

Krisserin 1:00:44

Yeah, definitely. And after, by the way. Before we have to start a day we're like, "Fuck, I have to go work now."

Kelton 1:00:51

but this is essentially like a live Q&A most episodes. It's just the only Qs are from us, and the only answers are also from us

Krisserin 1:00:58

It's true. It's true. All right. Uh, let's see.

Kelton 1:01:04

Krisserin, you gotta show your work. The people know what I write. They don't know what you write.

Krisserin 1:01:11

Listen, I am flattered. It's true, and you know, I think the thing is that you are prolific on Substack, and I am not an essay writer. I write... I told you that the first f- like, you know, draft of my book was 140,000 words. I, I am a novel writer. I'm barely a short story writer, and so on top of everything that I'm doing, the idea of publishing essays is, almost... A- and I have done a couple, and I have started many that I just, that languish. It just feels very daunting

Kelton 1:01:49

Let give you a workaround. I don't think you have to publish essays. I'm an essayist. That's why I publish essays, you know? I think that when we have an accountability group, in that group you could share things like the Marian short story, or the 2,000 words you got done, or what you're submitting for your MFA in a private channel where it's meant to be held accountable, where the idea is we're doing it together and you're not creating something for a platform. agree, you shouldn't be churning and burning on a genre you don't even like.

Krisserin 1:02:24

I like essays, I just don't- I can't write them. I can't write from my own perspective like that. I need a protagonist to write through

Kelton 1:02:31

you don't like to write.

Krisserin 1:02:33

you go.

Kelton 1:02:34

Um

Krisserin 1:02:35

Ideally, I, I get some of these short stories published, and then it'll sate the appetite of our listeners, and, I'm working on it. I do have short stories that are in progress, and so I... Listen, I would also love to be published more, so I hear you. Thank you, and I thank the people who wrote that in. I think that's very sweet, that you would say that, 'cause I do. I sometimes, I, I feel like, you know, Kelton, most of our audience are from your Shangrilogs newsletter, and s- and I'm just your fr- I'm just your friend

Kelton 1:03:07

Most of our listeners are from

Krisserin 1:03:09

from Olivia Muenter's podcast, yeah.

Kelton 1:03:14

But, we love them all.

Krisserin 1:03:16

Oh wait, hold on. We asked our listeners what their star signs were

Kelton 1:03:22

Yeah. You didn't include this in the, like, feedback packet

Krisserin 1:03:27

I know, I'm sorry. But let me, let's do just a quick rapid fire on the, who our listeners are and where they're coming from. Okay. So not everyone answered the astrology question, which is totally fair. Do you wanna guess the number one listener sign, Kelton? Or do you wanna guess if it's like, earth, wind, water, air?

Kelton 1:03:55

No because I hate guessing 'cause I'm a Capricorn

Krisserin 1:03:59

Okay. Scorpio leads the pack with five listeners

Kelton 1:04:05

love that

Krisserin 1:04:07

Taurus and Virgo are tied at four each.

Kelton 1:04:10

I

Krisserin 1:04:10

And

Kelton 1:04:11

there were gonna be some serious earth signs in there

Krisserin 1:04:13

Yeah, earth signs were the dominant sign. The highest number was earth signs. Then Leo, Libra, and Aquarius at three each. Two Sags, one Cancer, one Pisces, no Aries, no Gemini, and no Capricorns

Kelton 1:04:28

In, in any of their big three or just in their sun

Krisserin 1:04:31

and their sun signs

Kelton 1:04:33

Okay, well, I, I mean, you know, it's like to go like full astrology, but like without knowing their big three I can't take this seriously

Krisserin 1:04:41

of the moon signs, Cancer leads with three, followed by Capricorn with three, and then everything else is scattered at two, so Virgo, Gemini, Aries, Leo, Libra, Pisces, and Sagittarius

Kelton 1:04:54

I'm also a Virgo moon, shout out

Krisserin 1:04:56

Rising signs, Scorpio leads with rising signs

Kelton 1:05:00

Hell

Krisserin 1:05:00

with five. Capricorn, Cancer, Libra, and Sag risings all tied at three. Someone wrote, "Scorpio, Aries, Scorpio, but I promise I'm not scary."

Kelton 1:05:14

I

Krisserin 1:05:14

Li-

Kelton 1:05:15

lit up when you read me that big three. Listen, I think I love you

Krisserin 1:05:20

Leo, Capricorn, Capricorn. We have a Virgo sun, Gemini moon, Libra rising. A lot of people said, I looked this up just for you guys. Aquarius sun, Pisces moon, Cancer rising. And someone wrote, "Y- and yeah, my tether to reality is pretty tenuous also," Kelton. S- sun Scorpio, moon Cancer, I think, rising, no idea. So not a single Gemini or Aries sun in the bunch. Zero Capricorns. Which I thought was interesting

Kelton 1:05:48

It's amazing

Krisserin 1:05:49

Yep. All right. Okay. Summer plans. Now that we got that very important thing out of the way

Kelton 1:05:57

Mm-hmm. Well, for my summer, I have mapped out what I'm writing for the newsletter, so that alleviates a lot of creative burden so that I can focus on writing the first draft of a novel. Which novel? not sure. But a novel. I mean, it's probably gonna be the one that I already have, a third done, but I have been kind of salivating over my tropical rom-com, which I felt might be a low-stakes way to deliver a first draft of a novel, rather than my, complicated time novel, which is really hard to map write

Krisserin 1:06:35

Anything that's happening in the summer that you think might be an impediment to achieving your goal?

Kelton 1:06:41

Having a toddler

Krisserin 1:06:42

I mean, besides the obvious, Kelton

Kelton 1:06:44

And my hours increase in July.

Krisserin 1:06:48

Okay

Kelton 1:06:48

my... That is not, 100% official, but one of my core clients has asked to increase their hours by quite a bit, and, uh, that will be, will be challenging to figure out, because I had my hours really drawn out around daycare, and now it will be tighter. I have, I do have my, light screen protector for my laptop, so I can write in bed after the child falls asleep. I am weaning him at the end of this month, so I will be able to, every once in a while be like, "I'm disappearing for a full day." so hopefully those elements will at least enable me to get a little more done. and I... You know, when I think about the tropical rom-com, I have, delight on my side. You know, for the few listeners who are like, "Wow, I wish you guys were more positive," I do... I have excitement around that one. And so I thought maybe a quick and easy first-person, present tense, you know? It might be fun as an escapist piece to pursue that one. What's getting in your way?

Krisserin 1:07:59

Well, not, just like not even knowing what I'm working on.

Kelton 1:08:02

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:08:02

think that's a big problem

Kelton 1:08:04

you were delivering to me also the rom-com, the middle school principal rom-com.

Krisserin 1:08:09

You know,

Kelton 1:08:11

Mm.

Krisserin 1:08:11

of things. First, I was on TikTok last night, and you know how sometimes people will make those TikToks out of text messages and I don't know if you've seen this format, but like the text messages are, are read out like a, like a metal song? I'm gonna send these to you.

Kelton 1:08:26

this

Krisserin 1:08:27

I saw one that was literally the plot of my middle school romance. I'm gonna send it to you. I think that something that has dawned on me, and it

Kelton 1:08:39

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:08:39

is very much in line with what you were just saying, is that you cannot discount the ease that comes with a project that you're really excited about. And I find that because I am struggling with this first draft, it might not be the project I'm meant to work on. When I wrote the first draft of Parasocial, I wrote it so fast. It was so exciting to write. I mean, I had been thinking about it for a really long time, and I think that that is what I'm looking for. I n- there's a time for things to be hard, and to, to be thoughtful, and to be thorough, but it, I don't think it's in the first draft. I think the first draft should be exciting and fun, and should be an exploration, and I just don't feel like that's where I am at with this middle school romance novel. I feel like it sounds like,

Kelton 1:09:37

giving me?

Krisserin 1:09:38

girl, I d- that's what I said, I don't know Have you read my Gustafson novel?

Kelton 1:09:47

No. No,

Krisserin 1:09:47

maybe,

Kelton 1:09:48

maybe, it's

Krisserin 1:09:49

that, maybe it's that, because I do have some ideas about it

Kelton 1:09:52

that's a little bit of a cop-out given you've already written it several times.

Krisserin 1:09:56

I know, but I, I...

Kelton 1:09:57

to start a

Krisserin 1:09:58

A big rewrite. A

Kelton 1:09:59

whole

Krisserin 1:10:00

big rewrite. You can't, you can't blame me if the thing that I wanna finish is not a brand-new book

Kelton 1:10:11

I was promised a brand new novel. We'll be checking in the accountability group this September to see what everybody thinks about this.

Krisserin 1:10:18

I, I want-- Here's my plan, okay? It is June 11th. This ep is gonna- episode is gonna come out on Monday. I'm going to Canada on Monday. I will be gone for a week. I'm not even gonna bring my laptop. I usually always bring my laptop with me in case I wanna write when I'm on a trip. I'm leaving it at home. Fuck it. I'll bring a notebook, and I'm gonna bring the book that I'm reading that I'm using for research. And I'm going to write by hand while I'm there if inspiration comes. I have to turn in my 5,000 confirmed word count

Kelton 1:10:53

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Krisserin 1:10:55

for my workshop. I wanna take a break until, like, no-- Not even like I, I will read and research, but I wanna, take some of the pressure off feeling like I need to write, I need to write, which is always in the back of my head, until I go to Santa Fe in July. And from July 18th, which is when I'm done, I'm flying to Portland for two weeks. I'll be up at, you know, visiting Kennett and relaxing. I wanna take from, July 19th until we meet again after Labor Day, and that's when I'll focus in on whatever I'm gonna work on. But I do wanna take a break, 'cause I need it. I also have this, side project that I'm working on that's gonna be taking up a lot of my time, and I wanna focus on it 'cause I'm actually really creatively inspired by that, which Kelton, I'm gonna have to hire you to help me with.

Kelton 1:11:46

Yeah, I'm on board. I, uh, let, let's just, you know, I always say yes to new clients.

Krisserin 1:11:54

And so that's where I'm at. I promise you we'll have something by the end of summer that I am proud of, that you'll be excited to read and give feedback on. How about that?

Kelton 1:12:03

can't, I can't wait

Krisserin 1:12:04

Amazing. All right. Lovely, lovely listeners, I just wanna take a moment to thank you again. I wanna say thank you to all of the guests we had on this season. If you're listening, we love you. Thank you for coming on and being a part of our community. Thank you to everyone who wrote us an email or sent us a DM or l- you know, told us that we're being bitches. We love it. We love all of you.

Kelton 1:12:29

Yeah, special shout-out to the person who said, "I do enjoy this podcast, although it does make me roll my eyes at times. I never skip it, so do with that what you will."

Krisserin 1:12:38

That is the...

Kelton 1:12:39

tattoo it on my body.

Krisserin 1:12:40

Oh my God, I, like, dream listener.

Kelton 1:12:46

All right, happy summer

Krisserin 1:12:47

Happy summer. Happy writing